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  1.    #1  
    As a member of the Armed Forces I mourn the loss of so many innocent American lives. I, and every other member of the Armed Forces took an oath to defend our country and constitution. These cold blooded terrorists have tried to strike a blow against liberty. Instead they have woken a slumbering giant.
  2. #2  
    Originally posted by visoronfire
    As a member of the Armed Forces I mourn the loss of so many innocent American lives. I, and every other member of the Armed Forces took an oath to defend our country and constitution. These cold blooded terrorists have tried to strike a blow against liberty. Instead they have woken a slumbering giant.
    With you 100%. As a retired Army person, I feel ready to come aboard and help at any time I might be needed.

    David
  3. #3  
    SAME HERE, i first of it during second period in school. most all classes i had we got to watch tv and learn about what has happend.
    "Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs."
    "The sum of the intelligence on the planet is constant, but the population is increasing"
    "I am not a vegetarian because i love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.-- A. Whitney Brown"
  4. #4  
    Isn't it the work of the Armed Forces and the Military establishment in the past (and the present) that caused this mess on Tuesday? Just a thought.
  5. #5  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Isn't it the work of the Armed Forces and the Military establishment in the past (and the present) that caused this mess on Tuesday? Just a thought.
    Um...no.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  6. #6  
    ****, you only got it part right

    HELL NO!
  7. #7  
    Then why was the U.S targetted? Why does the U.S have so many enemies? Why didn't the terrorist blow up something say in Canada?


    Originally posted by VTL
    ****, you only got it part right

    HELL NO!
  8. #8  
    Well, If Bin Laden IS responsible, then he is responding to US military presence and support in the Middle East. While it is unfair to say the the US Military caused this event, it is what Bin Laden is retaliating against.

    He, right or wrong, believes that the US occupation of their holy land is worthy of retaliation.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by yardie
    Then why was the U.S targetted? Why does the U.S have so many enemies? Why didn't the terrorist blow up something say in Canada?


    I did not want to bring up this point because of bad timing issues (people are in mourning and have suffered a lot)

    But Yardie has a good point that the way the US handled their intelligence agenties and armed forces directly or indirectly led to this escaltion.

    I'm not saying these terrorists were right in doing this au contraire, this was a very cowardly act against innocent civilians...

    However the US was not innocent...

    <disclaimer>this is purely my PERSONAL opinion..etc. etc..<disclaimer>
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  10. #10  
    I've talked briefly along the same lines, but let's get one thing straight...

    Regardless of criticisms of American arrogance and "clumsy" foreign relations, this is separate from why America has been targeted by terrorists. For Muslim terrorists, they see the entire West (to include Europe, Canada, etc.) as a threat to the traditional Muslim religious state. The jihad isn't simply an overt call to war, it's a requirement for Muslims to defend Islam and what it stands for. For terrorists, they pervert this normally peaceful aspect of their religion to justify their violence. Not to propagate the stereotype of American arrogance, but America was a target because we are looked upon by the rest of the world as being the most prominent symbol of "the West," especially in smaller countries. Hence, we are a target because we are the most powerful, influential, successful and in the eyes of these terrorists, pervasive, Western nation in the world (if anyone would like to dispute this, feel free). Yes, we've angered many countries through our military actions, but knowing anything about our culture, our own citizens are reluctant to use violent miltary force unless it's in retaliation. That's a broad generalization, but accurate for the most part. Have innocents been killed or injured as a result of our actions? Yes, unfortunately. However, with the exception of actions during WWII and Vietnam (which is both criticized today and completely different as it was during WAR), civilians have not been targets. As for Israel, etc., that's a more complicated issue that I think everyone needs to read about (objective texts, there's enough biased "facts" out there). In any case, from meeting people from different countries, I was kind of shocked to find out exactly how many people hate Americans throughout the world. I can't always defend the actions of our government, but given the position we have in the world, it would be foolish to think that everything we did would please everybody. I believe that what America stands for - independence and equality - is by far more idealistic than any other country has to offer, and we fight for it, day by day - even amongst ourselves. No, we may not have a perfect record, but how many other countries can say they defend freedom every day?

    While as an American I tend to respect that everybody has his/her own opinion, I vehemently disagree. No, we're not all perfect little angels (we have terrorists within our own backyard to worry about), but to say that we as a nation brought this on ourselves is inaccurate, and bordering on callous. As for how I came up with this belief on terrorists and the US... I've had to study the topic since I'm scheduled to serve in the Middle East (no, this is not as a result of this week's events). Unfortunately, now it may not be for peaceful reasons.

    I won't repeat what I've said in other threads (ironically, I've responded to another one of ToolkiT's messages), but to get an idea of where I'm coming from go to this link
    Last edited by badmojo97; 09/14/2001 at 07:26 AM.
    "A Noble Spirit Embiggens the Smallest Man."
    —Jeremiah Springfield's Epitaph
    on The Simpsons
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by homer
    [Bin Laden], right or wrong, believes that the US occupation of their holy land is worthy of retaliation.
    He does not live in the Holy land. Sadly enough, the CIA trained him.
    James Hromadka, TreoCentral Editor
    Houston - EST. 1836
  12. #12  
    He does not live in the Holy Land because the U.S would have snatched him if he were. He is "defending" the holy land from afar. He is from the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).




    Originally posted by JHromadka


    He does not live in the Holy land. Sadly enough, the CIA trained him.
  13. #13  
    Sadly enough, the CIA trained him
    Very true... ironically the same kind of thing happened to us with Saddam Hussein and in other countries where we've "involved" ourselves (some people would choose other words). Yeah, yeah... some of you guys think that when the government sticks its fingers in other people's business, it's asking to get them bitten off. Just put it in perspective. The Afghanis were fighting the Russians to kick them out of Afghanistan. The US government thought it would benefit us to aid the rebels, so they provided weapons and training to the rebels (I guess we can say it now). These "dirty tricks" unfortunately are part of international politika, especially during the Cold War. Unfortunately, we tend to be sloppy and inconsistent when it comes to why, how, and who we choose to help. Do I wish we could "all just get along?" Of course, but I don't think governments, or humans for that matter, have evolved that far yet. Let me know if you think I'm off base.

    update

    You know I forgot to mention it before, but if you think about it, since the issue revolves around Afghanistan, I think it's doubtful Russia really wants to get involved too much (considering thousands of their soldiers died throughout that conflict). Some would say, "who cares?" but it's just something to think about. Regardless, it's not going to stop us from doing what we feel we need to do. Damn, I read too much Tom Clancy...
    Last edited by badmojo97; 09/14/2001 at 06:45 PM.
    "A Noble Spirit Embiggens the Smallest Man."
    —Jeremiah Springfield's Epitaph
    on The Simpsons
  14. #14  
    badmojo is right on in his explanation of why the U.S. (rather than Canada or other western countries) is the target. We are the biggest, richest, and most fully developed version of what Islamic fundementalists hate about western culture. And, much as the Europeans grumble about it, we are the "leader" of the western world.

    That's why they hate us and single us out, more than any specific thing we do or don't do.

    Frankly, I don't much care why they have decided to strike against us. Whatever their reason might be, it doesn't justify or excuse their actions, and it won't save them in the end from retaliation.
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by VTL


    Whatever their reason might be, it doesn't justify or excuse their actions, and it won't save them in the end from retaliation.
    Perhaps Justice is a better way to put it although these extremists probably better understand retaliation. America has always attacked other countries with the intent of doing damage or harm to military installations. These acts were directly addressed at civil targets. The perps cant blame bad intelligence of not knowing that that WTC was a civilian installation.

    Justice will be served. I hope that our government provides this justice in a manner of which we have become accustomed and bring the criminal behind this horrific act to trial. I.E. Milosovic, Saddam H. even though he's never been brought to trial, he was punished in a manner consistent with our Constitution.

    Perhaps, the criminal will succumb to his own hand of death similar to the way Hitler killed himself while the US and Russia was knocking on his door. Although, this would not necessarily be justice but perhaps satisfaction.

    It appears that most civilized countries understand that they could have easily been the target and they are rallying behind the USA. I believe that when this criminal(s) are brought to justice that the world will be a smaller place: meaning safer, friendlier and everyone getting along. Knowing and understanding that even though we come from different backgrounds and beliefs we are all one race - human.
    Moose Man
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  16.    #16  
    We’ll Go Forward



    You monster. You beast. You unspeakable *******.

    What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

    Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause.

    Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve.

    Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

    Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

    Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.



    IN PAIN



    Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

    But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice.

    I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

    In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.



    THE STEEL IN US



    You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold.

    As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

    So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

    But you're about to learn.
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by robert sibell
    SAME HERE, i first of it during second period in school. most all classes i had we got to watch tv and learn about what has happend.
    second period here too....
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  18. #18  
    He does not live in the Holy Land because the U.S would have snatched him if he were. He is "defending" the holy land from afar. He is from the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia).
    Partially true...he doesn't live in Saudi Arabia because he was kicked out of the country by the Suadi governement.

    What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.
    You won't get any answers out of the terrorists. They did it for no other cause than to kill Americans. They are not trying to prove a point, they are not trying to learn anything, they simply are out to kill Americans. That's what makes it so difficult to go to war with these people.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  19. #19  
    Homer is right about why terrorists do what they do. I don't entirely agree with his second point - that it makes it hard to go to war with them. That's right in one sense, and wrong in another.

    It's correct in that it is very difficult to deter someone who hates you so strongly that they are willing to take their own life to ruin yours.

    It's incorrect in that their attitude simplifies our approach to dealing with them. You treat them like a rabid dog - a very crafty, cunning and patient rabid dog, unfortunately.

    There's no point in negotiating with fundementalist terrorists. There's no point in trying to compromise on the "issues" to lessen their hatred. It won't work. They hate you and everything you stand for, and want to kill you, your kids, your entire family.

    So the only thing you can do with people like this is kill them - the same way you'd handle the rabid dog.
  20. #20  
    VTL:

    I agree with you in that the ONLY way to really stop them is to just kill them. The problem is that we don't know WHO they are. They are not a country. They are not a state. They are not an identifiable faction of the population. They are a group of people scattered throughout the world. Yes, we need to kill them, but how do we find them and eradicate them without civilian losses?

    Bush is ready to call up 100,000 reservists or so. My question is what are they going to do? Head to Afghanistan with photos of Bin Laden and ask everyone on the street if they've seen this person? Go door-to-door ala the Nazi's eradication of the Jews? Maybe that's the only way. I don't know.

    Even though there is no way we can reason with these people, I do think we should try and learn as much as we can about THEIR reasoning behind hating this country. Maybe there are things we can do to prevent future attitudes like this from forming. Perhaps engage in some open dialogue. I think we should study and learn from our enemy before killing them.

    BTW, I like the Rabid dog metaphor. It works on a lot of levels. A rabid dog isn't consciously evil, it is simply infected with a peculiar disease. The same could be said for the terrorists. Let's just not ourselves become infected with the same disease as they have (blind rage).
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
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