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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Nah... I don't believe in a second coming of Christ, and thus, cannot transfer that belief on to the current President of the US. I just think that, so far, he's doing a much better job than his predecessor.
    A much better job at spending money? I'll agree with you.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    A much better job at spending money? I'll agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Of course he has. He's trying to revive the economy destroyed by his predecessor and that takes money... LOL
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Of course he has. He's trying to revive the economy destroyed by his predecessor and that takes money... LOL
    Ummm, no. Bush didn't create this crisis. People like Barney Frank *did*.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #64  
    Jeezus H Christopher, when are you guys going to stop answering every question about why Obama is screwing up with "Bush sucks"?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Jeezus H Christopher, when are you guys going to stop answering every question about why Obama is screwing up with "Bush sucks"?
    I think we have. We've said:

    - Obama is doing a good job. The majority of Americans agree.
    - And Bush sucks. Totally different, but highly relevant, statement. Also agreed upon my the vast majority of Americans.
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  6. #66  
    A much better job at spending money? I'll agree with you.
    Any economist will tell you that the way to deal with a crisis of the type we've faced is to stimulate spending. The deficit is a result of that, but so is the slowing of the economy, which is showing positive signs. Did we forget that Obama didn't spend randomly, but inherited a hemorrhaging economy?


    This NYTimes report can explain why the Obama agenda is only responsible for "a sliver" of the deficits that our country is facing: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/bu...l?ref=politics. Bush policies contribute far more....again, it's not about "Bush sucks", but rather that you can't separate Obama's decisions from the mess that he inherited:

    About 33 percent [of the deficit spending] stems from new legislation signed by Mr. Bush. That legislation, like his tax cuts and the Medicare prescription drug benefit, not only continue to cost the government but have also increased interest payments on the national debt.

    Mr. Obama’s main contribution to the deficit is his extension of several Bush policies, like the Iraq war and tax cuts for households making less than $250,000. Such policies — together with the Wall Street bailout, which was signed byMr. Bush and supported by Mr. Obama — account for 20 percent of the swing.

    About 7 percent comes from the stimulus bill that Mr. Obama signed in February. And only 3 percent comes from Mr. Obama’s agenda on health care, education, energy and other areas.

    Later in the article: "In fact, unlike Mr. Obama, Republicans favor extending all the Bush tax cuts, which will send the deficit higher."
    You can keep pointing the finger at our President....just don't kid yourself that the facts, or the majority of Americans, agree with you.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/10/2009 at 02:31 PM.
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think we have. We've said:

    - Obama is doing a good job. The majority of Americans agree.
    - And Bush sucks. Totally different, but highly relevant, statement. Also agreed upon my the vast majority of Americans.
    A totally personal opinion, and totally false. More polls? Try looking at the facts. You really don't care that Obama is levying taxes on our grandchildren, with his spending? Did they get a chance to voice an opinion or vote? I think it's called Taxation without Representation.

    And on top of all that, Obama now owns most of the banks, a major car manufacturer, and he's threatening to destroy the healthcare system. How many "czar's" has he appointed now that only answer to him? 20 I think the number is. What about checks and balances? These people control 1.7 Trillion of BORROWED dollars without regulation or oversight, except Obama's.

    Yeah, he's doing a good job of killing capitalism and moving us to a totalitarian and socialist state.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Any economist will tell you that the way to deal with a crisis of the type we've faced is to stimulate spending.
    You don't stimulate spending by SPENDING, Bujin. It never has.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The deficit is a result of that, but so is the slowing of the economy, which is showing positive signs.
    Which positive signs? I must have missed them. Have you checked the unemployment numbers lately? The largest backruptcy in history just occurred, and oh... gas prices are up another dollar a gallon. Hrm.... where are those "signs"?

    If there are any signs, they're there *in spite* of Obama's policies.
    Bush policies contribute far more....again, it's not about "Bush sucks", but rather that you can't separate Obama's decisions from the mess that he inherited:
    Which Bush policy, Bujin? And seriously, we're getting a bit tired of the Bush suck's mantra. We get it. You hated him. All the worlds woes are because of Bush, and Obama is a saint. Got it.
    You can keep pointing the finger at our President....just don't kid yourself that the facts, or the majority of Americans, agree with you.
    Stand by on the "majority of Americans" part....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You don't stimulate spending by SPENDING, Bujin. It never has.
    You reduce job loss by spending, so that goods and services continue to be produced, and American workers have productive work. That's what the New Deal was about.
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Which positive signs? I must have missed them. Have you checked the unemployment numbers lately? The largest backruptcy in history just occurred, and oh... gas prices are up another dollar a gallon. Hrm.... where are those "signs"?

    Fed beige book: US economy weak but signs signal easing - Jun. 10, 2009


    If there are any signs, they're there *in spite* of Obama's policies.
    We get it. You hate him.
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  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #72  
    Just an observation. You keep defending Obama by attacking, pointing an accussing finger at Bush. Obama inherited, etc.

    I'm not defending Bush - I'm only trying to point out that you can't continue to blame him for Obama's actions. Obama has the power to reverse anything of Bush's legacy that he feels needs to be reversed. His hands aren't tied. And by continuing and endorsing, he's in fact adopting these policies as his own. So give that angle up, please. It's Obama that's in power now.

    Might I also point out that what Bush signed was presented to him by a Democratic controlled Congress. I do not agree with the spending and bailouts. Bush was wrong, and Obama has tripled this wrongness.

    Since the 1950s, IBM has hit some bad times 2 or 3 times and had to file bankrupcy and reorganize. It could easily have been said, at those times, that IBM was too big to fail, and we could have propped them up. But that didn't happen. They were allowed to "fail", fall down, rethink and restructure, and the came back stronger than before, each time.

    On the taxes issue; Yes - historically LOWERING taxes INCREASES consumer spending which in turn brings MORE MONEY into government coffers through taxation of products and services. It just amazes me that liberals can't get this through thier thick skulls (and I mean that in a loving way). It's worked time and time again, and still they ignore it. Reagan did it and it set up the longest economic boon in American history. Show me one instance where Government Spending has pulled the economy out of a recession, and then we'll look closer at it as an option.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    We get it. You hate him.
    You know what? If he destroy's this country, he'll deserve my hate. But I don't hate him yet. He's just got me very worried at the moment.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Did they get a chance to voice an opinion or vote? I think it's called Taxation without Representation.
    Actually, that's a silly, absurd, ill-informed post. The American people voted in our current administration. That's called "Taxation with Representation".

    You really don't care that Obama is levying taxes on our grandchildren, with his spending?
    Please read the NYTimes link, which clearly shows that his policies account for very little of the deficit. Facts always trump ideology.

    On the taxes issue; Yes - historically LOWERING taxes INCREASES consumer spending which in turn brings MORE MONEY into government coffers through taxation of products and services. It just amazes me that liberals can't get this through thier thick skulls (and I mean that in a loving way). It's worked time and time again, and still they ignore it. Reagan did it and it set up the longest economic boon in American history.
    An analysis from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities stated that "history shows that the large reductions in income tax rates in 1981 were followed by abnormally slow growth in income tax receipts, while the increases in income-tax rates enacted in 1990 and 1993 were followed by sizeable growth in income-tax receipts." Reaganomics caused, not reduced, our country's deficits.


    Show me one instance where Government Spending has pulled the economy out of a recession, and then we'll look closer at it as an option.
    Please read about the New Deal and the Great Depression. That's a pretty major instance.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/11/2009 at 11:01 AM.
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  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You reduce job loss by spending, so that goods and services continue to be produced, and American workers have productive work. That's what the New Deal was about.
    The New Deal did NOT bring the US out of recession. Goverments do not create wealth. Governments divide and redistribute wealth. Capitalism creates wealth. These are simple facts, Bujin. Why is it so hard for liberals to get it?
    Last edited by Micael; 06/11/2009 at 11:26 AM.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The New Deal did NOT bring the US out of recession.
    If you say so. You state that with great certainty, and with a capital "NOT", so you must be right.
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  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If you say so. You state that with great certainty, and with a capital "NOT", so you must be right.
    Couple things... First, there were technically two "New Deal" programs. Second, if there's anything that's certain in economics, it's that there is no universal opinion. You ask three economists for an opinion, you may get five or six.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Couple things... First, there were technically two "New Deal" programs. Second, if there's anything that's certain in economics, it's that there is no universal opinion. You ask three economists for an opinion, you may get five or six.
    Agreed - it's a very complex field of study.

    I would be curious as to whether serious economists actually agree with the allegation that the New Deal didn't address the Depression. I was struck by Newsweek’s Daniel Gross comments: “One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious professional historian who believes that the New Deal prolonged the Depression.....the truism we must all remember in 2009: As conservatives try to obstruct a new New Deal, they’re not making any arguments that are remotely serious."

    Interesting article here - I'm not sure I agree with all that the author states, but he includes some interesting statements by such figures as Bernenke and Paul Krugman.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...EDI51514UE.DTL
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/11/2009 at 11:25 AM.
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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Agreed - it's a very complex field of study.
    I put it in the same category as psychology. Our understanding is open to wide interpretation, and we can rarely predict future behavior with any degree of reliability.
    I would be curious as to whether serious economists actually agree with the allegation that the New Deal didn't address the Depression.
    You'll find opinions all over the map no doubt. You'd also have to define serious economists pretty well to filter.
    I was struck by Newsweek’s Daniel Gross comments: “One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious professional historian who believes that the New Deal prolonged the Depression.....
    You should note that he says 'historian', quite different from 'economist'.
    the truism we must all remember in 2009: As conservatives try to obstruct a new New Deal, they’re not making any arguments that are remotely serious."
    It seems to me that he's making a political statement and not an economic one.

    edit: I see that the truism statement is not actually Daniel Gross, but from the author of the article in the edited post.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Actually, that's a silly, absurd, ill-informed post. The American people voted in our current administration. That's called "Taxation with Representation".
    You don't seem to be able to grasp my point. People that ARE NOT BORN yet have been yoked with the taxes that will be imposed because of THIS President's economic policies. They have no choice. Who is speaking up for them, Bujin? Who is representing them? How is that silly, absurd, ill-informed? It's a frikken fact!

    Please read the NYTimes link, which clearly shows that his policies account for very little of the deficit. Facts always trump ideology.
    What flavor is that koolaid? OMG, Bujin, you are seriously saying that Obama isn't responsible for his spending?
    An analysis from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities stated that "history shows that the large reductions in income tax rates in 1981 were followed by abnormally slow growth in income tax receipts, while the increases in income-tax rates enacted in 1990 and 1993 were followed by sizeable growth in income-tax receipts." Reaganomics caused, not reduced, our country's deficits.

    Please read about the New Deal and the Great Depression. That's a pretty major instance.
    Talk about silly and ill-informed. The New Deal put "some" specific peoples to work. It in fact prolonged the depression/recession for almost a decade. It took a world war to pull us out. You need to read more.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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