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  1. #81  
    Ben, I could go point for point. But I'll just state that I disagree with you on virtually every point. Almost nothing you've said has a basis in fact, and just saying it doesn't make it true.

    I feel very, very lucky that the failed ideology that you so fervently espouse is no longer in power.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/15/2009 at 07:40 AM.
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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Ben, I could go point for point. But I'll just state that I disagree with you on virtually every point. Almost nothing you've said has a basis in fact, and just saying it doesn't make it true.

    I feel very, very lucky that the failed ideology that you so fervently espouse is no longer in power.
    @ Bujin,

    To be fair, you asserting that his points have no basis in fact without providing any yourself does not make it so either. It's not as if though one of you has more of a burden of proof than the other, but until one of you starts providing some facts (or at least links/citations) the claims made by both of you are just assertions.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by sschoi View Post
    @ Bujin,

    To be fair, you asserting that his points have no basis in fact without providing any yourself does not make it so either. It's not as if though one of you has more of a burden of proof than the other, but until one of you starts providing some facts (or at least links/citations) the claims made by both of you are just assertions.
    Well, I said that I disagreed...I did not assert any facts. I feel no burden of proof, if I'm simply expressing disagreement. However, if you look at other threads in Off-Topic (such as Good Old Boys, 9/11 was an inside job, or part 1 of this thread), you'll note that I have provided copious amounts of data regarding disagreements with bclinger and a couple of others. All have fallen on deaf ears.

    If I thought data would be reflected upon in any serious way (particularly about the education issue that was brought up), I'd provide it. However, I have found that political opinion is remarkably resistant to data.... you simply can't argue factually on subjects that are based upon emotion. It's like trying to have a reasoned discussion about religion - it's too embedded in upbringing, family and societal influences, etc. I find the debate fun personally, but people get far too heated on these boards about it.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/15/2009 at 08:53 AM.
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  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Since the goal of his policies (whether you agree with them or not) is to recover from the economic crisis and restore jobs, I think its pretty sad that people would like those policies to fail in order to make political points.
    You're mixing policies and goals in the same sentence. These aren't policies, they're objectives. We all agree on the goals.

    Policies are the methods and procedures he's implementing to achieve those goals.

    We disagree on how his approach to achieve them.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #85  
    Some very intellectual respectful hostility here. I love it. I agree that religious fanatics get very upset over those debates.. Is it wrong that I intentionally spark a flare sometimes? Yes.. But who cares, BTW - are you typing these msgs out on your Pre's?
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You're mixing policies and goals in the same sentence. These aren't policies, they're objectives. We all agree on the goals.

    Policies are the methods and procedures he's implementing to achieve those goals.

    We disagree on how his approach to achieve them.
    Except if people want his policies to fail, then by definition our common goals will likewise fail. I would think that, whether we agree with his policies or not, we shouldn't wish for them to fail, as they will cost real people jobs and hurt our country.
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    How do you square that comment with this one?
    +1
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I said that I disagreed...I did not assert any facts. I feel no burden of proof, if I'm simply expressing disagreement. However, if you look at other threads in Off-Topic (such as Good Old Boys, 9/11 was an inside job, or part 1 of this thread), you'll note that I have provided copious amounts of data regarding disagreements with bclinger and a couple of others. All have fallen on deaf ears.

    If I thought data would be reflected upon in any serious way (particularly about the education issue that was brought up), I'd provide it. However, I have found that political opinion is remarkably resistant to data.... you simply can't argue factually on subjects that are based upon emotion. It's like trying to have a reasoned discussion about religion - it's too embedded in upbringing, family and societal influences, etc. I find the debate fun personally, but people get far too heated on these boards about it.
    You claimed that almost every one of his points had no basis in fact. You are, asserting a "fact", that his claims are not true. I also stated that neither of you have any kind of burden of proof. I implied that assertions are more credible if accompanied by some data.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by sschoi View Post
    You claimed that almost every one of his points had no basis in fact. You are, asserting a "fact", that his claims are not true. I also stated that neither of you have any kind of burden of proof. I implied that assertions are more credible if accompanied by some data.
    All that may be true, but the reality is that I don't really feel like getting into a point-by-point refutation of what was basically a partisan rant. I also feel no need to prove my credibility to you, a stranger on a message board.
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  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Ben, I could go point for point. But I'll just state that I disagree with you on virtually every point. Almost nothing you've said has a basis in fact, and just saying it doesn't make it true.

    I feel very, very lucky that the failed ideology that you so fervently espouse is no longer in power.
    Now this is very funny! Obama has done nothing but extend and continue the policies of the last administration, with maybe the exception of gitmo, and that's still being debated. He's only increased the spending, but in the same way and to the same folks as Bush. They were both wrong. The bailouts are just plain wrong.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #91  
    Since the messiah has been in power we have heard nothing but the worst ever, going to get worse, and he blames everything on the past. Well, it ain't the past no longer. Nope, at at all. These are his policies formulated by him, his people and his polls. He does not want to run the banks, the automotive industry and bunches of other things. Did you read the paper a couple of days ago? What did it say about the banking industry? In order to get green, he is ordering the automobile industry to make tiny cars. Now, if these are not examples of his desire to run these industries, then his words indicate just the opposite. Remember his saying, "Just words." Well, just words still.

    It is obvious to all that when he hits a hard rock in the road and the polls go against him, he changes his course. This has happened so many, many times. Clinton lived with the polls; this guy sleeps with the polls.

    He tells us to save money and to be green, yet he jets his way to NY for an evening out. What's wrong with an evening out in DC? He tells us to save money and to be green, yet he goes to the Middle East and his wife and family come out at a later time and they meet up in Paris. What's wrong with everybody going in the same airplane? Nancy tells us to be green, yet she has her own Air Force and who does she take with her? Gosh, that person who gets bunches of money from the government. We have Al Gore screaming at the top of his lungs that the earth is going to die and now because the public does not believe him and the evidence points a bad finger at him, he changes his tune a bit, but GE still has its might fingers there to reap the benefits, though its CEO broke the company and is breaking the government.

    Are you going to buy one of his tiny little cars? Probably not. You got any of his energy saving light bulbs? What happens when one breaks at a school or a mercury thermometer breaks at a school? They evacuate the school!!!!!! Close the school! What happens if it breaks at your home? You clean up the mess and toss it in the trash.

    Really now. What a shame you know all of us who disagree with you are flaming idiots. Really now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Except if people want his policies to fail, then by definition our common goals will likewise fail. I would think that, whether we agree with his policies or not, we shouldn't wish for them to fail, as they will cost real people jobs and hurt our country.
    Last edited by bclinger; 06/15/2009 at 11:54 AM. Reason: To b or not to b
  12. #92  
    He has accelerated the spending much more than Bush ever considered and yepper, both are spending fanatics. One though the world knew would respond; the other the world knows will not respond. His actions in Afghanistan are not his own, just an extension. The bailouts? They did not work then, are not working now, but yes! come in 2010 and 2012 they will work - ELECTION TIME!

    Wrong? yes. Private industry seeks to achieve; government seeks to grow its power and the expense of everything around it.

    [QUOTE=Micael;1680664]Now this is very funny! Obama has done nothing but extend and continue the policies of the last administration, with maybe the exception of gitmo, and that's still being debated. He's only increased the spending, but in the same way and to the same folks as Bush. They were both wrong. The bailouts are just plain wrong.[/QUOTE
  13. #93  
    It is simply amazing that the way this country operated for so many years is now the only cause of its death. Wait a moment, aren't there that call themselves progressives? What did the progressives do in the early part of the 20th century? Is this not a continuation of their program? When they got in trouble, they backed off, but continued their agenda. Looks like now they are out in the open. God Bless the Progressive Movement and Bless the resulting failure of the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Except if people want his policies to fail, then by definition our common goals will likewise fail. I would think that, whether we agree with his policies or not, we shouldn't wish for them to fail, as they will cost real people jobs and hurt our country.
  14. #94  
    Don't be shy, tell us what you really think.
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  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Except if people want his policies to fail, then by definition our common goals will likewise fail.
    No. This displays the same lack of critical thinking as the Bush partisans. It is by definition a false dichotomy (e.g. "We do this or we do nothing", or "We do this or we do what Bush did"). Those are not the only options.
    I would think that, whether we agree with his policies or not, we shouldn't wish for them to fail, as they will cost real people jobs and hurt our country.
    This is not a foregone conclusion.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No. This displays the same lack of critical thinking as the Bush partisans. It is by definition a false dichotomy (e.g. "We do this or we do nothing", or "We do this or we do what Bush did"). Those are not the only options.
    Well, let's say I institute Policy A, in order to provide Goal A. If you wish for Policy A to fail, then the measure of failure would have to be that Goal A isn't achieved.

    So, given that Obama's policies (stimulus package et al) are being implemented in order to improve our economy and stimulate jobs, if I wish for his policies to fail, by definition I have to be rooting for our economy to not improve and/or jobs to not be created. How else would you define failure of his policies?
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, let's say I institute Policy A, in order to provide Goal A. If you wish for Policy A to fail, then the measure of failure would have to be that Goal A isn't achieved.

    So, given that Obama's policies (stimulus package et al) are being implemented in order to improve our economy and stimulate jobs, if I wish for his policies to fail, by definition I have to be rooting for our economy to not improve and/or jobs to not be created. How else would you define failure of his policies?
    I understand what you're trying to say, Bujin. However, I have to disagree with your argument as it is fallacy. You can want the economy to heal and have no love for the way in which it is being healed.

    That being said, even my staunchly Catholic inlaws pray for President Obama because, regardless of their opinions on his policy, he's the president and they support him as such... Rallying as a nation in times of trouble is what we do to survive, and trying to undermine the president is crap.
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  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    I understand what you're trying to say, Bujin. However, I have to disagree with your argument as it is fallacy. You can want the economy to heal and have no love for the way in which it is being healed.
    I absolutely agree that you can have a shared goal but strongly disagree with the path to get there. But that's very different than saying that "you hope the policy fails". Since his policy is already being implemented, then failure translates into the economy and employment suffering.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/15/2009 at 02:16 PM.
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  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, let's say I institute Policy A, in order to provide Goal A. If you wish for Policy A to fail, then the measure of failure would have to be that Goal A isn't achieved.
    Not necessarily. The goal may be achieved in spite of the policy, or may not be achieved due to other factors. For example, let's say that Bush implemented a set of policies to prevent another al Qaeda attack on American soil. Since there hasn't been another al Qaeda attack on American soil, have Bush's policies succeeded?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I absolutely agree that you can have a shared goal but strongly disagree with the path to get there. But that's very different than saying that "you hope the policy fails". Since his policy is already being implemented, then failure translates into the economy and employment suffering.
    This argument directly follows the logic behind 'if you don't support Bush's policies, you hope the terrorists win'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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