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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    No to the nut of "who is an American."

    An American if one means it in the generally used sense, is a person who is a US citizen. The idea that someone being born here makes them more American is silly, since in some senses their "Americanism" is abjectly passive, they made no choices. Immigrants are arguably more American.
    Agree 100%, and I'd say native Americans are the most "American". But I have the impression that the thread's originator was looking more to express and share his patriotism and positive feelings with others, and to hear some more of the same, rather than parsing the term. I could be wrong, and don't mean to speak on his behalf.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Agree 100%, and I'd say native Americans are the most "American". But I have the impression that the thread's originator was looking more to express and share his patriotism and positive feelings with others, and to hear some more of the same, rather than parsing the term. I could be wrong, and don't mean to speak on his behalf.
    Did you see the last thread with the same title. It was full of screeds and abject ignorance of history.

    And self proclaimed patriotism, like proclaimed faith worn on ones sleeve, is rightly suspect.
  3. #43  
    I am American, I love the USA! But when I hear others talk about how great our country is in comparison to ANY other country, I get that uncomfortable feeling in my gut. I like ToolKits points, he is right on. Who really cares enough to say 'mine is better than yours'? I think those who beat their chest and yell the loudest are truly the weakest and most ignorant of types of people. The USA has our good and bad points, just like everyone else.

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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by christo1970 View Post
    I am American, I love the USA! But when I hear others talk about how great our country is in comparison to ANY other country, I get that uncomfortable feeling in my gut. I like ToolKits points, he is right on. Who really cares enough to say 'mine is better than yours'? I think those who beat their chest and yell the loudest are truly the weakest and most ignorant of types of people. The USA has our good and bad points, just like everyone else.
    This. While I certainly like many aspects of the US, putting a value judgment like 'best' seems silly to me. I didn't emigrate here. My ancestors were either expunged from their chosen homeland or had other incentives to come here. They were here before the US even existed and wound up becoming US citizens by 'purchase'. As I said in the 'original' thread, I live in the Americas, so I am by definition an American. I am a US citizen. I am ethnically Cajun and Isleņo (probably with a smidgen of les allemands and mi'kmaq in there). FWIW.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #45  
    What makes me uncomfortable is when people feel they need to point out we're not necessarily the "best".

    It's a sign to me that that person is likely an apologist and feels guilt. They're not happy unless they see others expressing that same sense of guilt.

    I mean, why do they feel they have to rain on someone else's parade? Let them be happy and patriotic, and go ahead and carry whatever guilt they want.

    I know I may be way off base here. It's my impression though.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What makes me uncomfortable is when people feel they need to point out we're not necessarily the "best".

    It's a sign to me that that person is likely an apologist and feels guilt. They're not happy unless they see others expressing that same sense of guilt.

    I mean, why do they feel they have to rain on someone else's parade? Let them be happy and patriotic, and go ahead and carry whatever guilt they want.

    I know I may be way off base here. It's my impression though.
    Why would it be guilt???
    IMHO if you make outrageous claims like "XXX is the best and has no bad sides", it loses credibility...

    Take the pre for example if Dieters review said: it is the best thing since sliced bread and beats the iPhone on every front, I would have a word with him and ask him what he has been smoking, and where I can get some
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #47  
    Who said "has no bad sides"? No offense, but either they over schooled you on being PC, or your "real" issue is seeing someone displaying patriotism for a country you dislike or not like so much.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Who said "has no bad sides"? No offense, but either they over schooled you on being PC, or your "real" issue is seeing someone displaying patriotism for a country you dislike or not like so much.
    The way it was worded it was strongly implied imho..
    Patriotism is fine as in being proud of your country, but it can go too far in some cases and you are right I dont like that (down)side of patriotism..
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  9. #49  
    Ah spoken as true Americans, I have already been to Japan to recognise & then sent to oijombe, South Korea where I had to act act then from the mistakes made there sent to Viet Nam where that previous learning sa ed my life.
    Now If I understand corectly, You folow in my footsteps if the military is whom you belong to. Now one dog to another, keep your chin up do s you've been trained & your disipline will protect you. This disipline will stay with you forever forwhen you ets your oath will never be taken away from you. God Bles You, stay safe & don't worry your brothers are there with you you are not alone.
    Yes everything has faults but regardles our country does too it matters not because we are Americans.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What makes me uncomfortable is when people feel they need to point out we're not necessarily the "best".

    It's a sign to me that that person is likely an apologist and feels guilt. .
    Agreed often the people who call themselves Patriots are apologists. At our founding the Patriots were the Tories, the people who didn't think we shouldn't criticize the British Empire.

    Let's not forget our founders were the most anti-Patriotic people on earth. They were unapologetic traitors who engaged in illegal warfare, sedition and treason agaisnt their legal government. A government(the British Empire) incidentally that was already the "best" on earth in terms of rule of law and liberty.

    The fact is the "best" government was not good enough for our founders and they engaged in relentless criticism to make it better, and when that did not work, they engaged in conspiracy and illegal violent rebellion to overthrow it.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What makes me uncomfortable is when people feel they need to point out we're not necessarily the "best".
    Why does that make you uncomfortable?
    It's a sign to me that that person is likely an apologist and feels guilt. They're not happy unless they see others expressing that same sense of guilt.
    Interesting, because I see a need to be perceived as the best as somewhat insecure.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Interesting, because I see a need to be perceived as the best as somewhat insecure.
    Well put. Proclaiming ones patriotism is rarely done out of context, it is usually a response, and attempt to shout down criticisms with an appeal to chauvinism instead of use of fact.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #53  
    I think people who haven't experienced patriotic feelings or thoughts may have difficulty understanding same.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I think people who haven't experienced patriotic feelings or thoughts may have difficulty understanding same.
    I think it has become very common for people to send a message that, if you don't simply loudly proclaim that "America is perfect!", then you're not a patriot or don't have patriotic feelings. It is perfectly possible to hold two simultaneous thoughts: (a) this is a great country with wonderful opportunities, and (b) we have things we can work on to become even better.
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  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think it has become very common for people to send a message that, if you don't simply loudly proclaim that "America is perfect!", then you're not a patriot or don't have patriotic feelings. It is perfectly possible to hold two simultaneous thoughts: (a) this is a great country with wonderful opportunities, and (b) we have things we can work on to become even better.
    I agree totally. But I'd add (c) let those that express their patriotic feelings alone without feeling an urge to remind, educate, rub their faces in all the wrong we've done.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #56  
    Through all the sceptimism & the studies of history through rights & wrongs here we are. Those born here from so many (if not all) have arrived here from another place, does that mean we are all imigrants complaining we have no place to go since we don't like what we see or learned or is this the voice of an American learned of the difficulties & not be able to fix them?
    Isn't there any good to say or is this the place to relieve our frustrations.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #57  
    ".... And that's about all I have to say tonight. Except for one thing. The past few days when I've been at that window upstairs, I've thought a bit of the "shining city upon a hill." The phrase comes from John Winthrop, who wrote it to describe the America he imagined. What he imagined was important because he was an early Pilgrim, an early freedom man. He journeyed here on what today we'd call a little wooden boat; and like the other Pilgrims, he was looking for a home that would be free.

    I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still."

    - President Ronald Reagan on January 11, 1989, in his farewell speech to the nation
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I've thought a bit of the "shining city upon a hill." The phrase comes from John Winthrop, who wrote it to describe the America he imagined. What he imagined was important because he was an early Pilgrim, an early freedom man.
    Actually "city on a hill" is an expression hatred toward others. the city on the hill is a rejection of religious freedom.

    Winthrop was quite hateful man, who rejected the idea of religious tolerance, and who believed England was damned for allowing Catholics to worship.

    The original "city on the hill" was a pure hate speech by a man who was opposed to religious freedom and wished to make a place with no religious freedom in the New World.

    Freedom man? no, the opposite.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    The way it was worded it was strongly implied imho..
    Patriotism is fine as in being proud of your country, but it can go too far in some cases and you are right I dont like that (down)side of patriotism..
    So the stereotype is true about people from the UK being reserved and understated?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So the stereotype is true about people from the UK being reserved and understated?
    LOL I wouldnt say I'm stereotypical for the UK... After all I am dutch, and the dutch are known for being blunt...
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