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  1. wjclint's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm saying that current laws don't adequately address things. Whether the current laws would be changed to just have civil unions under whatever name or that additional legal status would be added doesn't matter much to me personally. The oppositions to additional legal status do come off to me as emotional and not rational, though.
    But it is an emotional issue and to deny or ignore that is to deny and ignore reality. To leave the emotional part out of the equation does not make the debate more rational it makes it less rational.

    The right to marry has been recognized as a fundamental right under U.S. law since the founding of our country. Civil Unions have not been offered up as some sort of alternative until recently. So to say to a group of people, over and over, that this fundamental right isn't for them and they should be just as happy with a "civil union" should evoke an emotional response (hopefully a negative one) that is also followed by a rational discussion and analysis of the inherent unfairness and inequality in such a position. Separate but equal is inherently unequal.

    The current laws do adequately address things (things being the benefits and obligations) about marriage. The laws simply deny those benefits and obligations to one group of society for no justifiable reason.
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  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    But it is an emotional issue and to deny or ignore that is to deny and ignore reality. To leave the emotional part out of the equation does not make the debate more rational it makes it less rational.
    Does not compute.
    The right to marry has been recognized as a fundamental right under U.S. law since the founding of our country.
    I'm not familiar with those statutes. I'd appreciate a little more elaboration.
    Separate but equal is inherently unequal.
    Extrapolating a racial hot button phrase to any inequality is a foolish consistency.
    The current laws do adequately address things (things being the benefits and obligations) about marriage.
    Which current laws?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #143  
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #144  
    Some good stuff here regarding the legal definition of marriage and related laws.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
    I dunno... maybe because it's exclusionary and wrong? Slavery was around for a long time too.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman.
    Really? Since the inception of civilization? According to what source? Even the Bible didn't define it as such.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. wjclint's Avatar
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    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Does not compute.

    I'm not familiar with those statutes. I'd appreciate a little more elaboration.

    Extrapolating a racial hot button phrase to any inequality is a foolish consistency.

    Which current laws?
    Which current laws? Each state has a set of laws that govern marriage, usually in some sort to Family Code but also within State Constitutions, scattered about in various statutes, and in the state's common law. In addition there are Internal Revenue Code sections that address the obligations and benefits of marriage as well as Federal laws that do the same. Across the country there is a plethora of current laws that govern pretty much every aspect of the marriage relationship. Those laws give the parties to the marriage certain benefits and impose certain obligations.

    Racial hot button phrase? The concept and phrase regarding "separate but equal is never actually equal" is certainly most famously associated with racial issues, but it is by no means exclusive to that. It illustrates the point that if all of the benefits and obligations of marriage are recreated in a new legally recognized relationship but we refuse to call it marriage then the two are not the same.

    Not familiar with those statutes? It isn't statutory as most of the law in this country isn't statutory. You can get a flavor for the position marriage has held in our system of laws by reading US Supreme Court cases such as Loving v. Virginia, Zablocki v. Redhail, Turner v. Safley, and Meister v. Moore. The right to marry has been recognized as a fundamental right as far back in our country's history as you can research. That does not mean we can't have laws that impose limitations on the right to marry. What it does mean is that if we are going to deny that right to someone there must be at least a rational basis for doing so.

    Does not compute? 49676e6f72696e6720656d6f74696f6e73206973206972726174696f6e616c2e
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  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
    Says who? And if you point to the bible, I can point out all kinds of crazy things in there so let's leave that off the table.
    Grant Smith
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  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    Which current laws? Each state has a set of laws that govern marriage, usually in some sort to Family Code but also within State Constitutions, scattered about in various statutes, and in the state's common law.
    That's my point isn't it? How can you make the blanket statement that the current laws are adequate then?
    Racial hot button phrase? The concept and phrase regarding "separate but equal is never actually equal" is certainly most famously associated with racial issues, but it is by no means exclusive to that.
    But it does color the perception of the issue when it's used. Technically, having separate restrooms for the sexes is unequal. That doesn't make it de facto 'bad' or 'undesirable' obviously. I can see that we're talking around each other at this point.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    But it does color the perception of the issue when it's used. Technically, having separate restrooms for the sexes is unequal. That doesn't make it de facto 'bad' or 'undesirable' obviously. I can see that we're talking around each other at this point.
    I think people can certainly understand why separate restrooms is appropriate based upon gender, but also not appropriate when based upon such factors as race.

    I'm still struggling as to why marriage is appropriate for straights and not for gays. The legal complications don't strike me as a compelling argument, as civil unions are frequently put forth as an option, and proponents suggest that they provide for all of the legal rights that marriage does. If procreation issues aren't too complicated for civil unions, then I don't see why it's more complicated for marriage.

    Imagine if the government stated that only couples who can procreate naturally can marry. Others can use adoption or in vitro, but they have to have a civil union. That would of course never be a serious suggestion, as procreation clearly isn't a prerequisite for marriage. So I have yet to find a logical reason for gay couples not to be allowed to marry, other than the very circular argument that "gay couples can't marry, because marriage is between a man and a woman".
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/29/2009 at 02:34 PM.
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  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Technically, having separate restrooms for the sexes is unequal.
    Please don't go there... oh lord, the million times I've walked right past that long line to the ladies room to the quick in and out mens room.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think people can certainly understand why separate restrooms is appropriate based upon gender, but also not appropriate when based upon such factors as race.
    I think that we'll look back and wonder eventually how we were ever able to say such things with a straight face.
    I'm still struggling as to why marriage is appropriate for straights and not for gays.
    I never said it wasn't appropriate.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Please don't go there... oh lord, the million times I've walked right past that long line to the ladies room to the quick in and out mens room.
    Sorry. It's an inequality. Must be addressed.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
    Here's an amusing video that may address that question:

    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Sorry. It's an inequality. Must be addressed.
    LMAO!
    Grant Smith
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  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Here's an amusing video that may address that question:

    That was hilarious.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. wjclint's Avatar
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That's my point isn't it? How can you make the blanket statement that the current laws are adequate then?
    I can't imagine that that is actually your point. All areas of law, whether marriage, personal injury, employment discrimination, contract, etc., etc. Are governed by State, Federal or State and Federal law. At the state level you will always have statutes, case law, and sometimes regulations. At the Federal level you will always have statutes, case law, and usually regulations.

    If your suggestion is that the laws are inadequate because they are contained within multiple "areas" then you would have to say all of the laws of America are inadequate. The fact that the laws are scattered (notice I didn't say disorganized) has nothing to do with whether they are adequate. Whether they are adequate is determined by the content of those laws.
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is great to live in a feel good society where anything goes just to make 'em happy.
    It certainly is. Much better than living in a society where people are persecuted by religious nonsense.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
    Your assertion is completely false. Marriage in many civilizations is/was between one man and several women and it doesn't always work. It seems to fail at least half the time.
  20. #160  
    Just remember that here in this country you can pretty much do what you want. Look at most of the socialist countries and that cannot be said. Look at England, France and other countries to see just how free one is versus here. So take another look at your statement. Religious nonsense? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    It certainly is. Much better than living in a society where people are persecuted by religious nonsense.
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