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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    YES the USA is founded, established and created by Christianity
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    So the real question is what s wrong with Civil Unions? Same thing different name offend none.
    So you are saying that if you went to get married and you were told 'No, you cannot get married because we disagree with your choice of partner, but we'll let you get a civil union instead...' you wouldn't be offended? I know I would.

    Marriage (the word, the concept of uniting for mating and for companionship is far older than Christianity) may or may not have originated with Judaism / Christianity but it has come to define a union of love between two people and to discriminate as to who those two people can be is VERY offensive.
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
    Who said anything about America ceasing to be good? The less discrimination we allow, the more 'good' we become.
    Grant Smith
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The US was founded not on Christian principles but on Greco-Roman principles.
    What does wrestling have to do with this?
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    What does wrestling have to do with this?
    You'd be surprised... LOL
    Grant Smith
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    Well I’ll add my 2 cents to the board since none have stated the obvious (To a believer). YES the USA is founded, established and created by Christianity and the willingness to worship in your own way.
    There is an inherent contradiction between "founded by Christianity and the willingness to worship in your own way". Unless I'm mistaken, Christianity (like many/most religions) strictly forbids you from worshiping in your own way.... it's the "don't worship false idols" thing.

    To expand this more the majority of the world is based on the same concept.
    Most of the world is based upon Christian values? Most of the world is not Christian, so I'm not sure what you mean.

    What problems have you had with Christian moral guide?
    Quite simply, I'm not a Christian. I don't believe, for example, that homosexuality has a moral component. It isn't right or wrong...it just is. Should I be forced to adopt values that I don't agree with, because I'm not Christian? If the government converts religious ideology into law, then it is the establishment of a religion, which is against our Constitution.

    The answer is the California ruling where a free population has voted to uphold a term used by Christians and hence America to reflect the union of a man and women into one entity.
    So the real question is what s wrong with Civil Unions? Same thing different name offend none.
    My state legalized gay marriage - we clearly stated that it was an issue not of Christian belief, but of basic equity of opportunity.

    There is an entirely different thread about civil unions vs. marriage, but my opinion is that "separate but equal" is, by definition, not equal.
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  6. wjclint's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    Well Iíll add my 2 cents to the board since none have stated the obvious (To a believer). YES the USA is founded, established and created by Christianity and the willingness to worship in your own way. This does no t mean that you are required to be a Christian or even believe in a higher power. However our values are based in Christian belief and laws.
    To expand this more the majority of the world is based on the same concept.
    To further that belief believers believe that this is ordained by God who destine the world and all things within it before he even created the world.
    Why this is even and issue?
    What problems have you had with Christian moral guide?
    The answer is the California ruling where a free population has voted to uphold a term used by Christians and hence America to reflect the union of a man and women into one entity.
    So the real question is what s wrong with Civil Unions? Same thing different name offend none.
    To anyone that says our Nation was founded on Christianity I would challenge you to two things: 1) give some historical evidence from the time of the founding of our country that somehow contradicts what is stated so plainly in the Treaty of Tripoli (adding "under god" to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s doesn't count); and

    2) Show me where in Christian doctrine you find the ideas of Federalism (as a system of divided power within a government), Separation of Powers, a two house legislative branch with one house based on a system of states and the other on population of states, the idea for a 9 justice Supreme Court, the right of habeas corpus, the guarantee of a republican form of government, the idea of civilian power over the military, checks and balances between three branches of government, freedom of speech, the idea that governments shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, the right to trial by jury, the prohibition against quartering soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent, etc.

    When people say the Nation was founded on Christianity what they are really saying is some of the founders were Christians and they don't seem to understand the difference. Most, if not all, of the founding principles of the Government of the United States of America have no relationship to Christianity and where some of the ideals do overlap most can be traced back to sources other than Christianity (Greco-Roman principles).
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    To anyone that says our Nation was founded on Christianity I would challenge you to two things: 1) give some historical evidence from the time of the founding of our country that somehow contradicts what is stated so plainly in the Treaty of Tripoli (adding "under god" to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s doesn't count); and

    2) Show me where in Christian doctrine you find the ideas of Federalism (as a system of divided power within a government), Separation of Powers, a two house legislative branch with one house based on a system of states and the other on population of states, the idea for a 9 justice Supreme Court, the right of habeas corpus, the guarantee of a republican form of government, the idea of civilian power over the military, checks and balances between three branches of government, freedom of speech, the idea that governments shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, the right to trial by jury, the prohibition against quartering soldiers in private homes without the owner's consent, etc.

    When people say the Nation was founded on Christianity what they are really saying is some of the founders were Christians and they don't seem to understand the difference. Most, if not all, of the founding principles of the Government of the United States of America have no relationship to Christianity and where some of the ideals do overlap most can be traced back to sources other than Christianity (Greco-Roman principles).
    While I agree with the theme of your post, the problem-spotter in me must point out the number of supreme court justices is not outlined anywhere in the Constitution. In fact, the court historically had anywhere from six to FDR attempting to pack it with fifteen.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    I do not know that it is.
    That's the first hurdle we have to cross then.
    Regardless, it is discrimination based on sexual preference to disallow gay marriage and, thus, would seem to fall under the category of civil rights in my book.
    Except that within our legal system there are legal and illegal forms of discrimination. To discriminate is to simply make a choice. To pick one thing in preference of another. When you hire someone for a job position, you discriminate against all the others who didn't get the position. There is nothing de facto illegal about this discrimination. When the discrimination becomes illegal is when a protected class is unduly experiencing an adverse impact.
    I'm not sure what this has to do with anything and I'm not even sure what 'unisex' is supposed to mean.
    Really?
    1-sex? Isn't that what we already have?
    What planet are you from?
    I'm fine with that.... Do you mean, on the other hand, one restroom for everyone?
    Yes. Just as with unisex clothing is made for both men and women to wear the same thing, the unisex bathroom would have both men and women using the same bathroom. No more 'discrimination' based on sex.
    I'm fine with that, too, I suppose. It doesn't really matter in my opinion.
    Mine either. Just curious.
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  9. wjclint's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
    While I agree with the theme of your post, the problem-spotter in me must point out the number of supreme court justices is not outlined anywhere in the Constitution. In fact, the court historically had anywhere from six to FDR attempting to pack it with fifteen.
    Man - should have spent up a few more brain cells typing to make sure I didn't make mistakes, but you are correct.
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  10. g.711's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
    Ignoring the Treaty of Tripoli and the writings of enlightenment thinkers for a moment, if our government were based on "Christian belief and laws" why does our Constitution (and laws that follow) allow for breaking of seven and possibly eight of the ten commandments? Only murder, stealing, and perjury are disallowed out of the list of commandments, and laws against them predate JudeoChristianity.
    Quick points
    The constitution is not the Bible. The founders made every attempt to include all beliefs so America could have freedom OF Religion not freedom FROM Religion
    Do you really think that the founders pulled the model of the constitution and Bill of Rights out of thin air. Do you think any country follows some personal mother earth ethical internal code which human beings have?
    No. Every modern country is founded on either Christian or Islamic based law both of which have common origins. How else does one decide what is right or wrong? Feelings, Stars the fall of a stick?
    The question of the thread is; The United States of America Founded is on Christianity?
    The answer is Yes.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Marriage (the word, the concept of uniting for mating and for companionship is far older than Christianity) may or may not have originated with Judaism / Christianity but it has come to define a union of love between two people and to discriminate as to who those two people can be is VERY offensive.
    The ironic thing is that the concept of marriage solely for love is a relatively recent concept. Historically, marriage has been an institution of shared power (among the rich) and shared burden (among the poor).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    Quick points
    The constitution is not the Bible.
    That's the point I'm trying to make. You just said it was based on the laws of Christianity, however.

    The founders made every attempt to include all beliefs so America could have freedom OF Religion not freedom FROM Religion
    That's absurd, but it's irrelevant to your claim our nation is based on "Christian belief and laws" (your words).

    Do you really think that the founders pulled the model of the constitution and Bill of Rights out of thin air.
    Nope. The model of our government is the culmination of societal evolution and can be traced back to the Magna Carta, to Rome, to Greece, and further back to Babylonia.

    Do you think any country follows some personal mother earth ethical internal code which human beings have?
    What?

    No. Every modern country is founded on either Christian or Islamic based law both of which have common origins.
    This is so wrong it isn't funny.

    How else does one decide what is right or wrong?
    Morality is complex and has existed before Christianity. It's a societal trait.

    The question of the thread is; The United States of America Founded is on Christianity?
    The answer is Yes.
    The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams and ratified by one of the first US Senates, disagrees with you.

    ---

    Now kindly show me where the concept of a democratic republic with bill of rights exists in the Bible.

    (It doesn't).
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    within our legal system there are legal and illegal forms of discrimination. To discriminate is to simply make a choice. To pick one thing in preference of another. When you hire someone for a job position, you discriminate against all the others who didn't get the position. There is nothing de facto illegal about this discrimination. When the discrimination becomes illegal is when a protected class is unduly experiencing an adverse impact.
    Yes, and discrimination based on sexual preference IS illegal last I checked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Really?

    What planet are you from?
    LOL. I hadn't even thought of 'unisex clothing' when responding. Now I feel like a moron...
    Grant Smith
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  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The ironic thing is that the concept of marriage solely for love is a relatively recent concept. Historically, marriage has been an institution of shared power (among the rich) and shared burden (among the poor).
    You are quite right.
    Grant Smith
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Who said anything about America ceasing to be good? The less discrimination we allow, the more 'good' we become.
    What kind of discrimination are you talking about?
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    What kind of discrimination are you talking about?
    Read the thread.
    Grant Smith
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Yes, and discrimination based on sexual preference IS illegal last I checked.
    Discrimination in what context? In HR terms, it may be. I haven't been in the field for a while now, so that's quite possible.
    LOL. I hadn't even thought of 'unisex clothing' when responding. Now I feel like a moron...
    No worries. Wasn't mean spirited. I got a chuckle out of the "Don't we have already have one sex" query. Juxtaposed with the Star Trek thread, it reminded me of both a TNG episode and a recent Bones episode.
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  18. jewel's Avatar
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    #58  
    It's not right to discriminate when it comes to race. This should not be the case when it comes to ideas.
  19. #59  
    [QUOTE=Toby;1619919]Discrimination in what context? In HR terms, it may be. I haven't been in the field for a while now, so that's quite possible.../QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    It's not right to discriminate when it comes to race. This should not be the case when it comes to ideas.
    Race, religion, creed, sex, sexual orientation. We should not discriminate based on ANY of these. These are all various aspects of being human and RIGHTS should not be withheld based on any of these attributes. We are human regardless and deserve our RIGHTS.

    I know someone said something about 'inalienable human rights' in some important document way back when... What were they again? Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness? Yeah...
    Grant Smith
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  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    The founders made every attempt to include all beliefs so America could have freedom OF Religion not freedom FROM Religion
    Athiests, for example, should indeed have freedom FROM religion. As an athiest, I don't care how anyone worships, but I should not be forced to have laws based upon religious tenets that I don't believe in.

    How else does one decide what is right or wrong? Feelings, Stars the fall of a stick?
    Athiests number approximately 15% of the population. My sons have incredibly strong ethical values, coupled with an admirable amount of acceptance of others. Their ethical upbringing included no religion. Religion is a path toward ethics...not the only path.
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