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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Since the inception of civilization, marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman. Why change something that has worked for so long?
    100% false. It is more likely that polygamy has been more the rule than monogamy since the advent of civilization. Polygamy certainly runs through secular and sacred texts without prejudice or condemnation from the advent of civilization until recent times
  2. #202  
    Since I have a little time, I think I'll bring this full circle...
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, this one has bugged me for a long long time.
    Out of curiosity, why?
    Are we a Christian nation, or aren't we?
    We are only in the sense that we have a majority of people who claim to be Christian in some way, shape or form. Other than that, it depends on your definition of 'founded'. Some of the colonies were founded by Christian sects who were trying to find freedom to practice their religion in the way they deemed appropriate which was not necessarily in line with their country of origin. OTOH, some of the colonies were founded on purely imperialistic/capitalist terms. As has already been pointed out, the philosophical foundation of the government is rooted in Greco-Roman and Enlightenment philosophies (Locke being a huge influence).
    If we aren't, doesn't that blast holes on many of the moral issues we stand on like abortion, gay marriage, bigomy, and prostitution?
    It depends on one's viewpoint. There are all sorts of arguments that can be made on any of those from a non-religious standpoint. For example, abortion is the taking of a 'human' 'life'. That is an irrefutable fact. Whether it is 'right', 'wrong', or neither de facto is what's up for debate. Gay marriage is already being beat to death. Bigamy is more a crime of fraud under our current legal system, than de facto saying that having more than one spouse is morally wrong.
    What do we use as a moral compass, if not an ideological one?
    The philosophical foundation of the US would say that it's an individual choice and none of the business of the government.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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       #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Seriously, you fail history 101.

    The US was founded on democratic and republic ideals created and exercised by pagans and atheists in ancient Greece and Rome
    Hrm, I'd been taught that our representative government was inspired in large part by the Iroquois Confederacy. See The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hrm, I'd been taught that our representative government was inspired in large part by the Iroquois Confederacy. See The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
    Well that is highly inaccurate and goes to show how attempts at injecting multiculturalism into history cause these false claims.

    Athenian democracy, Greek philosophy, mediated by Roman republican practice, and informed by enlightenment views on the individual (themselves a recap of ancient Greek views) are what our founders drew on.
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       #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Well that is highly inaccurate and goes to show how attempts at injecting multiculturalism into history cause these false claims.

    Athenian democracy, Greek philosophy, mediated by Roman republican practice, and informed by enlightenment views on the individual (themselves a recap of ancient Greek views) are what our founders drew on.
    Thankfully, your calling it false does not make it so. It just means you refuse to see.

    Iroquois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Thankfully, your calling it false does not make it so. It just means you refuse to see.
    And your claim that all the major historians are wrong and ward Churchill and his ilk are correct is marginal and up their with 911 was faked claims. ok.

    It is patently false and that is why it is bunch of gibberish that wouldn't make it past peer review. There are scores of demonstrably and objective false statements in the piece.

    I hope with that wikipedia article you realize you are making yourself a follower of Ward Churchill.

    If you choose to believe our government isn't rooted on Greek democracy that's fine. There is a reason why educated people know better.
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hrm, I'd been taught that our representative government was inspired in large part by the Iroquois Confederacy. See The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
    So, what you're saying is that it was a completely different group of pagans?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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       #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    And your claim that all the major historians are wrong and ward Churchill and his ilk are correct is marginal and up their with 911 was faked claims. ok.

    It is patently false and that is why it is bunch of gibberish that wouldn't make it past peer review. There are scores of demonstrably and objective false statements in the piece.

    I hope with that wikipedia article you realize you are making yourself a follower of Ward Churchill.

    If you choose to believe our government isn't rooted on Greek democracy that's fine. There is a reason why educated people know better.
    wow. you really sling the mud when you go after someone. ward churchill? 911 was faked claims? I'm uneducated so I don't know better? anything else you'd like to add?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    wow. you really sling the mud when you go after someone. ward churchill? 911 was faked claims? I'm uneducated so I don't know better? anything else you'd like to add?
    I am not slinging mud. I am giving you t he background of those revisionist theories.

    I did not say you are uneducated, only that uneducated people think our democracy was not founded on ideals and practices of Greece and Rome.
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       #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, what you're saying is that it was a completely different group of pagans?
    Not really. I do think we fail to recognize this countries original people, and the probable contributions they made to our culture and government structure. I'm actually a bit amazed by the response it provoked.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Not really. I do think we fail to recognize this countries original people, and the probable contributions they made to our culture and government structure. I'm actually a bit amazed by the response it provoked.
    Because some people have read the works of the founders. Some of know they were steeped in an education and continually cited and referenced Herodotus, Solon, Pericles, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Cato, Cicero,etc adn later Locke, Burke, Hobbes, Hume and not "government" structures and policies (real or imagined) of the Native Americans.

    Native Americans have made many contributions, and suffered much, but the idea that our political culture was affected by them is not supported.

    You realize most of our founders read Greek and Latin and not native American? right?
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       #212  
    "As to our aboriginal or Indian population . . . I know it seems to be agreed that they must gradually dwindle as time rolls on, and in a few generations more leave only a reminiscence, a blank. But I am not at all clear about that. As America . . . develops, adapts, entwines, faithfully identifies its own -- are we to see it cheerfully accepting using all the contributions of foreign lands from the whole outside globe -- and then rejecting the only ones distinctively its own . . . ? " - Walt Whitman, 1883
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    "As to our aboriginal or Indian population . . . I know it seems to be agreed that they must gradually dwindle as time rolls on, and in a few generations more leave only a reminiscence, a blank. But I am not at all clear about that. As America . . . develops, adapts, entwines, faithfully identifies its own -- are we to see it cheerfully accepting using all the contributions of foreign lands from the whole outside globe -- and then rejecting the only ones distinctively its own . . . ? " - Walt Whitman, 1883
    Whitman is not alluding to any politcial contribution.

    You also seem to have diverted from the original question, the spurious claim that the country was founded on Christianity, which is something ignorant people say.

    the founding of the US an and its founding documents are if anything a outright rejection of Judea christian "values" such as the divine right of kings and an embrace of secular humanism
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       #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Since I have a little time, I think I'll bring this full circle...

    Out of curiosity, why?

    We are only in the sense that we have a majority of people who claim to be Christian in some way, shape or form. Other than that, it depends on your definition of 'founded'. Some of the colonies were founded by Christian sects who were trying to find freedom to practice their religion in the way they deemed appropriate which was not necessarily in line with their country of origin. OTOH, some of the colonies were founded on purely imperialistic/capitalist terms. As has already been pointed out, the philosophical foundation of the government is rooted in Greco-Roman and Enlightenment philosophies (Locke being a huge influence).

    It depends on one's viewpoint. There are all sorts of arguments that can be made on any of those from a non-religious standpoint. For example, abortion is the taking of a 'human' 'life'. That is an irrefutable fact. Whether it is 'right', 'wrong', or neither de facto is what's up for debate. Gay marriage is already being beat to death. Bigamy is more a crime of fraud under our current legal system, than de facto saying that having more than one spouse is morally wrong.

    The philosophical foundation of the US would say that it's an individual choice and none of the business of the government.
    Great and well thought out response. Clarification please. Would do you personally believe Bigamy is morally wrong? My issue with the bigamy debate has only been that it's been brought up as argument against gay marriage.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Great and well thought out response. Clarification please. Would do you personally believe Bigamy is morally wrong?
    I'm not sure I understand your question. Do I believe that the crime of bigamy as currently defined is wrong? Yes, from the perspective that the multiple spouses are unaware as to the existence of the others. Other than that, I don't think any arrangement between consenting adults is necessarily wrong.
    My issue with the bigamy debate has only been that it's been brought up as argument against gay marriage.
    I don't see it as a valid argument against gay marriage.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, this one has bugged me for a long long time. Are we a Christian nation, or aren't we? If we aren't, doesn't that blast holes on many of the moral issues we stand on like abortion, gay marriage, bigomy, and prostitution? What do we use as a moral compass, if not an ideological one?

    Go ahead and talk amongst yourselves.
    We are a christian FOUNDED nation, as this nation as founded on christian, BUT the us has integrated SOOO may things into itself, that we have muddied the water to an unrecognizable state.
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vkitty View Post
    We are a christian FOUNDED nation, as this nation as founded on christian, BUT the us has integrated SOOO may things into itself, that we have muddied the water to an unrecognizable state.
    Wrong.
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       #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vkitty View Post
    We are a christian FOUNDED nation, as this nation as founded on christian, BUT the us has integrated SOOO may things into itself, that we have muddied the water to an unrecognizable state.
    Wow. Where to begin....
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    #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vkitty View Post
    We are a christian FOUNDED nation, as this nation as founded on christian, BUT the us has integrated SOOO may things into itself, that we have muddied the water to an unrecognizable state.
    O'kay, if you actually read the thread you will see that each time someone says what you have said, I ask, basically, what I am about to ask. As of yet no one who has stated the U.S. is founded on Christian principles has answered the question:

    Can you give some historical evidence that any of the following principles, which are some of the actual ones that founded this Nation, originate from Christianity? 1) right to jury trial; 2) a three branch government; 3) habeas corpus; 4) right to a republican form of government; 5) the prohibition against passing laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; 6) etc.

    Wow, I feel like a broken record.
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  20. Micael's Avatar
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       #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by Vkitty View Post
    We are a christian FOUNDED nation, as this nation as founded on christian, BUT the us has integrated SOOO may things into itself, that we have muddied the water to an unrecognizable state.
    Vkitty, I think you are describing what you personally think, and that this thinking is based on misinformation. Whoever told you this is wrong. Please take some time to read, research, and learn about the beginnings of the United States. We have always been a nation of immigrants - the water started out being muddied, as you put it. It's one of our strengths, along with "Tolerance towards others".
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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