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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    We don't know how many people have died from waterboarding, nor will we ever find out, nor will be find out how many of the prisoners that have died in our custody died from blunt force. We know it happened and it shouldn't have.
    Find ANY reference to a recent (since 9/11) death based on waterboarding, please. And I challenge you to show ANY credible evidence of a conspiracy to cover up prisoner deaths resulting from torture, as well. And don't bring up Abu Ghraib. That's a different argument entirely.
    The concept of "evil" is a mythical one. I don't believe our country is "evil"; I don't believe Iran is "evil" nor do I believe the past administration was. I just think they made a mistake in judgment.

    Laugh at the tv thriller all you want. Add to it, she loaned him $1000 for an apartment. Now they think she is a terrorist and not a civilian because he used that money for part of his plot.
    I get the distinct impression that I'd never win a "top this!" argument with you!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Find ANY reference to a recent (since 9/11) death based on waterboarding, please. And I challenge you to show ANY credible evidence of a conspiracy to cover up prisoner deaths resulting from torture, as well. And don't bring up Abu Ghraib. That's a different argument entirely.


    I get the distinct impression that I'd never win a "top this!" argument with you!
    Do you really think the people who opened these outside of the US interrogation facilities are going to publish who died from what? or if anyone died for that matter? Just another reason why we need transparency in government, so this never happens again.

    I don't think they tried to cover up prisoners death. They have been reported along with the abuse and the pictures to go with it. There are missing prisoners, just like after any war. What happened to them who knows.
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  3. #163  
    Ok and less people every day believe that Al Gore's rant about the environment is true. We also know that our legislators in Washington refuse let there be a real debate in their chambers over Al Gore's rant. Fine. We signed. We still do what is necessary in time of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    We did indeed ratify and sign the UN Convention Against Torture, as well as the Geneva Conventions.
  4. #164  
    No, but the government has stated only 3 people have been waterboarded and that none of them died.

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    We don't know how many people have died from waterboarding, nor will we ever find out, nor will be find out how many of the prisoners that have died in our custody died from blunt force. We know it happened and it shouldn't have.

    The concept of "evil" is a mythical one. I don't believe our country is "evil"; I don't believe Iran is "evil" nor do I believe the past administration was. I just think they made a mistake in judgment.

    Laugh at the tv thriller all you want. Add to it, she loaned him $1000 for an apartment. Now they think she is a terrorist and not a civilian because he used that money for part of his plot.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hardly the same thing. How many people have we lost to waterboarding? The worse and most lasting thing possible is we made a major impression on them and they'll have some recurring nightmares perhaps.... good. Don't forget who these people are.
    It IS the same thing. There is a potential for fatal harm inherent in the process. You cannot argue a counter because there is none. Waterboarding can be fatal and is torture. It is really that simple.
    Grant Smith
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  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    How many have we killed with waterboarding, again?
    Do I need to point you to the definition of fallacy as well? It doesn't matter how many we've killed. What matters is that it is potentially fatal and torturous.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Do you really think the people who opened these outside of the US interrogation facilities are going to publish who died from what? or if anyone died for that matter? Just another reason why we need transparency in government, so this never happens again.

    I don't think they tried to cover up prisoners death. They have been reported along with the abuse and the pictures to go with it. There are missing prisoners, just like after any war. What happened to them who knows.
    Just empty accusations then? I'll even take some far fetched conspiracy data based on wishful evidence, at this point. Anything at all?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Ok and less people every day believe that Al Gore's rant about the environment is true. We also know that our legislators in Washington refuse let there be a real debate in their chambers over Al Gore's rant. Fine. We signed. We still do what is necessary in time of war.
    Last I checked, everyone is still on board for saving the planet aside from a few that I cannot comprehend... But that is a discussion for a different thread.

    What is necessary in a time of war is not a justification for breaking laws and morals. Especially when the war was contrived from false information gathered through illegal and IMMORAL means.
    Last edited by gksmithlcw; 05/26/2009 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Edited to prevent the appearance of personal attacks
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Just empty accusations then? I'll even take some far fetched conspiracy data based on wishful evidence, at this point. Anything at all?
    Dude, if you want to go around preaching about the virtues of waterboarding and other tortures go right ahead. Don't be surprised if a few people along the way find you a little bit eccentric.
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  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Do I need to point you to the definition of fallacy as well? It doesn't matter how many we've killed. What matters is that it is potentially fatal and torturous.
    You took my comment out of context, which was a question to someone elses implication that we've killed from waterboarding. I simply asked for any evidence or numbers. You've made your "fallacy" point previously, but it does not apply to my comment.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Last I checked, everyone is still on board for saving the planet aside from a few morons... But that is a discussion for a different thread.

    What is necessary in a time of war is not a justification for breaking agreements. Especially when the war was contrived from false information gathered through illegal and IMMORAL means.
    Ok, this is the point where I'm going to have to ask you to tone down the rhetoric. You imply that people who oppose your viewpoints are morons. I'm going to need to beg to differ, I'm not a moron.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You took my comment out of context, which was a question to someone elses implication that we've killed from waterboarding. I simply asked for any evidence or numbers. You've made your "fallacy" point previously, but it does not apply to my comment.
    No. Your post was NOT out of context. You asked ME the question and I gave YOU the answer. View the post.

    As I stated before, it does not matter how many people have died. It matters that they COULD die and that this TORTURE is both immoral and illegal.

    Any argument that tries to take away from these facts by quoting numbers is, quite simply, a fallacy.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Dude, if you want to go around preaching about the virtues of waterboarding and other tortures go right ahead. Don't be surprised if a few people along the way find you a little bit eccentric.
    ok
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sorry, but could you please provide a link to the ratification, tia.
    The list of signers can be found here: United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For the wiki-phobes out there, it's also spoken about here: U.S. Defends Itself on Inmate Abuse - New York Times
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  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, this is the point where I'm going to have to ask you to tone down the rhetoric. You imply that people who oppose your viewpoints are morons. I'm going to need to beg to differ, I'm not a moron.
    A. It isn't rhetoric.
    B. People who don't care if Earth is inhabitable are completely ignorant given the fact that we have nowhere else to go.
    C. Oppose al you want. If you don't want a healthy planet upon which to live, I'll gladly deem you a moron.

    And, again, we're off topic. I won't discuss this one any further.
    Last edited by gksmithlcw; 05/26/2009 at 01:47 PM.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
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    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    No. Your post was NOT out of context. You asked ME the question and I gave YOU the answer.

    As I stated before, it does not matter how many people have died. It matters that they COULD die and that this TORTURE is both immoral and illegal.

    Any argument that tries to take away from these facts by quoting numbers is, quite simply, a fallacy.
    No need to yell. Palandri implies we've killed prisoners by waterboarding, "we don't know how many", and you imply that we could. How is my questioning you to provide facts backing up your accusations a fallacy?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    A. It isn't rhetoric.
    B. People who don't care if Earth is inhabitable ARE morons given the fact that we have nowhere else to go.
    C. Oppose al you want. If you don't want a healthy planet upon which to live, I'll gladly deem you a moron.

    And, again, we're off topic. I won't discuss this one any further.
    Classic. Right up there with "Have you stopped beating your wife?" I don't agree that we are the cause of global warming, nor that we can control the climate. Now can you tone it down a bit please? I really don't like being threatened.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No need to yell. Palandri implies we've killed prisoners by waterboarding, "we don't know how many", and you imply that we could. How is my questioning you to provide facts backing up your accusations a fallacy?
    It is a fallacy because numbers do not matter. The medical fact is that waterboarding is deadly. The number of people that have died is irrelevant.

    And, don't worry, I'm not yelling, just highlighting. ;-)
    Grant Smith
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    eNVENT Technologies
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The list of signers can be found here: United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For the wiki-phobes out there, it's also spoken about here: U.S. Defends Itself on Inmate Abuse - New York Times
    Thanks for this. I did my homework too, and you're right. For the record, signing and ratifying are two hugely different things. We did indeed ratify "subject to certain declarations, reservations, and understandings, including that the Convention was not selfexecuting, and therefore required domestic implementing legislation to take effect." So, it's not ratified as written. Just a technicality. I know. I read it and much of it deals with expiditing aliens to countries where we think they may be tortured. Interestingly, it also offers language that indicates that Pelosi indeed could be legally prosecuted. Thanks again for your input.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No need to yell. Palandri implies we've killed prisoners by waterboarding, "we don't know how many", and you imply that we could. How is my questioning you to provide facts backing up your accusations a fallacy?
    I never said that.
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