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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    WMD was the primary reason that we were initially told the war was necessary. The Joint Resolution is here, and you can see that most of the rationale was related to WMD. The bulk of the remaining elements were related to 9/11, even though we of course know that there was no link to Iraq:

    Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
    Yes, and the Joint Resolution rationale is still sound. The only issue left unresolved was finding stockpiles after we arrived. And there's evidence that they did exist, and certainly evidence that he had used them, and was trying to aquire more.

    Personally I wanted him out because he should have been booted in the first Gulf War. That coupled with a decade of disregard for numerous UN resolutions, routinely shooting at our jets, gassing his own people, providing a safe haven for terrorists.... these were all good reasons to remove him, and have nothing to do with your WMDs.

    The left's WMD red herring is tired and has been beaten to death. Yes, it was part of the reason, but only part. The fact we didn't find a huge stockpile doesn't erase the 1000 other reasons we needed to go in and remove him. Move on please.
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff for then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, stated that "the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002--well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion--its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa'ida."
    You have a point here? The point of waterboarding is to get intel. Of course they wanted to find any links they could between Iraq and Al Qaeda. You're kidding, right? It sounds like the rest of his statement is politically tinged "opinion".
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm sorry. How is it that being complicit during the execution of a crime not something that would normally fall under "legal"? Last I checked, you can still be convicted of murder, even if you didn't pull the trigger.

    Please fess up. You apply black and white when it suits you, and degrees when it suits you as well. So typical of the left, imo.
    First, I'll state once again that I'm an Independent who voted Republican since 1980, until the party veered so far right that they lost me. However, I can understand your confusion: anyone who doesn't fall on the far right ideologically isn't considered a Republican by those in power at the party, hence the denouncements of moderates like McCain, Powell, Snowe and Huntsman. The party would rather be ideologically pure than actually win elections.

    As for the degree of complicity, I've stated that if Pelosi, or anyone on either side of the aisle, was complicit in illegality, then they should pay a price. However, members of the Intelligence Committee have no decision-making authority, and cannot speak about what they're briefed on because it's classified, so there really isn't anything Pelosi could have done to affect the policy. But it sounds like you're coming around to the idea that there was the commission of a crime, if you're calling for her to be punished for complicity, so that's progress.
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  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You have a point here? The point of waterboarding is to get intel. Of course they wanted to find any links they could between Iraq and Al Qaeda. You're kidding, right? It sounds like the rest of his statement is politically tinged "opinion".
    Yes, I do have a point: waterboarding didn't occur to "get intel", but to create false intel. That's what torture does - it gets people to tell whatever the interrogators want to hear.
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  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yes, and the Joint Resolution rationale is still sound. The only issue left unresolved was finding stockpiles after we arrived. And there's evidence that they did exist, and certainly evidence that he had used them, and was trying to aquire more.

    Personally I wanted him out because he should have been booted in the first Gulf War. That coupled with a decade of disregard for numerous UN resolutions, routinely shooting at our jets, gassing his own people, providing a safe haven for terrorists.... these were all good reasons to remove him, and have nothing to do with your WMDs.

    The left's WMD red herring is tired and has been beaten to death. Yes, it was part of the reason, but only part. The fact we didn't find a huge stockpile doesn't erase the 1000 other reasons we needed to go in and remove him. Move on please.
    It really wasn't "my WMD's" - the other reasons you cite weren't the justification given to the American people, and to Congress, for going in, even if you personally thought they were good reasons.
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    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And he revealed in an interview later that he would have said anything to get it to stop....which is sort of the point about its effectiveness. And he lasted 6 seconds, had control over when it stopped, and only had it done to him once. In a real situation, that of course isn't the case. They have waterboarded people for as long as 2 minutes, and applied it 180 times. I find it amazing that you feel can declare that its not torture with such certainty, and believe that your opinion is more credible than someone who has actually gone through the process.

    So if people who have gone through it have called it torture, John McCain has said it, David Petraus has said it, the Geneva Conventions and Army Field Manual clearly don't allow it. I'm really curious as to what basis are you using to decide that its not torture. It fascinates me as to the mental gymnastics ideologues use to justify their preconceived opinions, in defiance of enormous evidence that contradicts it.
    I never said it wasn't torture. Thats a different argument. My concern is only why when and how it's applied. There have to be some extraordinary measures that can be used in extraordinary circumstances.

    Roughing up bad guys needs to be on the table when the lives of children and innocents are at stake. Sorry.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The left's WMD red herring is tired and has been beaten to death. Yes, it was part of the reason, but only part. The fact we didn't find a huge stockpile doesn't erase the 1000 other reasons we needed to go in and remove him. Move on please.
    Unfortunately, the evidence regarding the justification for going in doesn't support your opinion, but I agree we should move on.
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    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    For instance, allow me to shoot you in order to get information. Sure, it could kill you but you could also survive and I'll have medical personnel readily available...

    I don't think so.
    Hardly the same thing. How many people have we lost to waterboarding? The worse and most lasting thing possible is we made a major impression on them and they'll have some recurring nightmares perhaps.... good. Don't forget who these people are.
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    #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It really wasn't "my WMD's" - the other reasons you cite weren't the justification given to the American people, and to Congress, for going in, even if you personally thought they were good reasons.
    Please. I stated in the same message that I felt the Joint Resolution still stood up. Why would you feel the need to point out that we didn't go in for my personal reasons? It was an aside.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I never said it wasn't torture. Thats a different argument. My concern is only why when and how it's applied. There have to be some extraordinary measures that can be used in extraordinary circumstances.

    Roughing up bad guys needs to be on the table when the lives of children and innocents are at stake. Sorry.
    The Convention against Torture specifically states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

    You may very well think that there are situations in which torture is justified, but the law and international agreements disagree. There have always been times where lives were at stake, but we didn't sanction the torture of Nazis, North Koreans, or the Viet Cong, and this conflict doesn't justify it either. Especially since there's no data that it's actually effective.
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  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    What's that method where water drops on your head at a slow steady rate until you finally lose your sanity?
    That would be the Chinese Water Torture
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    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    OK... sleep deprivation can KILL YOU. Waterboarding can KILL YOU.
    How many have we killed with waterboarding, again?
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    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Convention against Torture specifically states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

    You may very well think that there are situations in which torture is justified, but the law and international agreements disagree. There have always been times where lives were at stake, but we didn't sanction the torture of Nazis, North Koreans, or the Viet Cong, and this conflict doesn't justify it either. Especially since there's no data that it's actually effective.
    The "Convention" was drafted up many years ago, and is based on conventional warfare. The idea was to protect the soldiers, who were often drafted into service. Regardless, if you think we didn't use "rough tactics" to gain a strategic advantage on the battlefields during Nam, or WWII, you're mistaken.

    These aren't doughboys or regular GI's. These are terrorists, and murderers who fly planes into buildings full of innocent civilians. It's absolutely silly to use the Convention in these cases.
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    #154  
    Point blank, the Geneva Convention should not apply. Period.
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  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    How many have we killed with waterboarding, again?
    Prisoners have died in our custody, plus there are many missing prisoners.

    Go back to what I was saying about your daughter. She meets a guy and becomes friends. It's later determined that this guy is a terrorist of some sort. Your daughters name is in his contact list. They try to talk to your daughter to find out where he is. They think she's lying. She tells you the truth, that she doesn't know where he is and you believe her 100%. They don't believe her and want to waterboard her to find out for sure. Does that make any sense? Would you let them haul your daughter be away to be waterboarded? I don't think so, I think you would fight them off with every ounce of power you had.
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    #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Prisoners have died in our custody, plus there are many missing prisoners.
    uh... huh? I just asked how many people had died from waterboarding. Sounds like a non-answer. But whats this about missing prisoners? at Gitmo? I missed something I guess.

    I guess what you're really trying to say is that we're an evil country.... or just Bush/Cheney was evil?
    Go back to what I was saying about your daughter. She meets a guy and becomes friends. It's later determined that this guy is a terrorist of some sort. Your daughters name is in his contact list. They try to talk to your daughter to find out where he is. They think she's lying. She tells you the truth, that she doesn't know where he is and you believe her 100%. They don't believe her and want to waterboard her to find out for sure. Does that make any sense? Would you let them haul your daughter be away to be waterboarded? I don't think so, I think you would fight them off with every ounce of power you had.
    LOL. Sounds like a good movie! Sorry. Here's the flaw in your made for tv thriller: my daughter isn't the terrorist. I never said anything about waterboarding civilians.
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Convention against Torture specifically states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."
    I don't believe the US has ratified that Convention. I thought you were talking about the Geneva Convention before.
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I don't believe the US has ratified that Convention. I thought you were talking about the Geneva Convention before.
    We did indeed ratify and sign the UN Convention Against Torture, as well as the Geneva Conventions.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/26/2009 at 11:03 AM.
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  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    uh... huh? I just asked how many people had died from waterboarding. Sounds like a non-answer. But whats this about missing prisoners? at Gitmo? I missed something I guess.

    I guess what you're really trying to say is that we're an evil country.... or just Bush/Cheney was evil?

    LOL. Sounds like a good movie! Sorry. Here's the flaw in your made for tv thriller: my daughter isn't the terrorist. I never said anything about waterboarding civilians.
    We don't know how many people have died from waterboarding, nor will we ever find out, nor will be find out how many of the prisoners that have died in our custody died from blunt force. We know it happened and it shouldn't have.

    The concept of "evil" is a mythical one. I don't believe our country is "evil"; I don't believe Iran is "evil" nor do I believe the past administration was. I just think they made a mistake in judgment.

    Laugh at the tv thriller all you want. Add to it, she loaned him $1000 for an apartment. Now they think she is a terrorist and not a civilian because he used that money for part of his plot.
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  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    We did indeed ratify and sign the UN Convention Against Torture, as well as the Geneva Conventions.
    Sorry, but could you please provide a link to the ratification, tia.
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