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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Sleep deprivation can kill you if it is over a long period of time, but really now, not from what is being done to them. Waterboarding can kill, but not in the situation here - the documents clearing indicate medical personnel are immediately available. So, not a big deal.
    Wow... I'm glad medical personnel are readily available to resuscitate people that die but there is no guarantee that they will be successful. Nor does it change the fact that people could DIE.

    I, personally, take dying very seriously.

    Regardless, though, this rationale does not constitute a proper argument. People can survive all kinds of deadly things but that doesn't make them right or proper or non-torturous...

    For instance, allow me to shoot you in order to get information. Sure, it could kill you but you could also survive and I'll have medical personnel readily available...

    I don't think so.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    And what kind of stupid statement is that? If the opportunity were here then why not? I have been kicked in the face by a horse, kicked in the stomach by a horse, gone under a truck on I-75 riding a motorcycle - I survived them and others. I am sure I will survive waterboarding. As I stated above, no physical harm in my book = no torture. Plain and simple.

    Bujin, they may consider it torture, but I do not. No sleep, strong lights - anything that does not permanently injure is not what I would throw in the torture arena.
    I love the "I'm tuff, I can take anything" logic. Thats really not the point anyway as thats not what defines torture. Thats just how you're defining it. Its not leveling degrees of pain, which is what you're trying to treat it as. So as much as you want it to, the "well, I got kicked in the balls by a horse one time, so this should be a cake walk" logic doesnt apply here chief.

    Listen, neither you nor I know what its like, so we can sit here all day spouting our opinion on something we know nothing about. But when people like McCain, Petraus, Jesse Ventura, that ****** bag conservative DJ & basically our laws & military say that its torture, Im gonna go out on a limb & say its probably torture & not listen to a bunch of Neocon retards in suits who are just trying to cover their a$$es.

    I think anyone with half a brain without some motive would feel the same way, so do & say what you want. But until you've experienced it yourself, you should probably shut up about it.
  3. #123  
    I am sure I will survive waterboarding. As I stated above, no physical harm in my book = no torture. Plain and simple.
    Mancow Muller said almost exactly the same thing.

    Bujin, they may consider it torture, but I do not. No sleep, strong lights - anything that does not permanently injure is not what I would throw in the torture arena.
    The point is not whether you consider it torture, but whether the law and international agreements do.

    Nobody is going to conduct an investigation and state "Well, what we did was against the law, the Geneva Conventions, and the UN Convention against Torture, and has been condemned by people with expertise such as Gen. Colin Powell, Gen. David Petraus, and Sen. John McCain, but bclinger doesn't think it's torture, so therefore it's okay."

    My father used to have a saying: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/25/2009 at 09:12 AM.
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  4. #124  
    It is not the tough stuff - just a statement of fact. Heck you can die staring at the computer. Really now. You really do get nasty in your comments, don't you? Typically liberal.

    Quote Originally Posted by peestandingup View Post
    I love the "I'm tuff, I can take anything" logic. Thats really not the point anyway as thats not what defines torture. Thats just how you're defining it. Its not leveling degrees of pain, which is what you're trying to treat it as. So as much as you want it to, the "well, I got kicked in the balls by a horse one time, so this should be a cake walk" logic doesnt apply here chief.

    Listen, neither you nor I know what its like, so we can sit here all day spouting our opinion on something we know nothing about. But when people like McCain, Petraus, Jesse Ventura, that ****** bag conservative DJ & basically our laws & military say that its torture, Im gonna go out on a limb & say its probably torture & not listen to a bunch of Neocon retards in suits who are just trying to cover their a$$es.

    I think anyone with half a brain without some motive would feel the same way, so do & say what you want. But until you've experienced it yourself, you should probably shut up about it.
  5. #125  
    You are showing your typical rant when people do not agree with you. Amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Mancow Muller said almost exactly the same thing.



    The point is not whether you consider it torture, but whether the law and international agreements do.

    Nobody is going to conduct an investigation and state "Well, what we did was against the law, the Geneva Conventions, and the UN Convention against Torture, and has been condemned by people with expertise such as Gen. Colin Powell, Gen. David Petraus, and Sen. John McCain, but bclinger doesn't think it's torture, so therefore it's okay."

    My father used to have a saying: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    ....Typically liberal.
    You keep trying to turn it into a political argument and it's not.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  7. #127  
    Let me use my 'Moderator Voice'

    Is it really that difficult?

    You guys can't have a civilized debate?

    Show me that you can.
    Please!
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is not the tough stuff - just a statement of fact. Heck you can die staring at the computer.
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    And, yes, many other things can kill you, too. But before anyone tries to drop that fallacious argument, those things are not being imposed upon anyone else in an attempt to garner information and, if they are, I would consider them torturous as well.
    Fallacy - "an argument that is not logically valid"
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  9. #129  
    Just as valid as you dying when waterboarding.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Just as valid as you dying when waterboarding.
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is not the tough stuff - just a statement of fact. Heck you can die staring at the computer.
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    And, yes, many other things can kill you, too. But before anyone tries to drop that fallacious argument, those things are not being imposed upon anyone else in an attempt to garner information and, if they are, I would consider them torturous as well.
    Fallacy - "an argument that is not logically valid"

    Arguing that waterboarding can kill you is valid in reference to the FACT that it is torture. Arguing that other things can kill you to try and negate the fact that waterboarding can kill you is a fallacy. The fact that other things can kill you has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact that waterboarding can kill you.

    This is why I don't spend time in these threads... Logical debate is not possible.
    Last edited by gksmithlcw; 05/25/2009 at 04:05 PM.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  11. #131  
    What's that method where water drops on your head at a slow steady rate until you finally lose your sanity?
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    You are showing your typical rant when people do not agree with you. Amazing.
    If making it about me makes you comfortable, that's fine. Actually, I only made the point that your definition of torture, as well as mine, are irrelevant. What matters is the definition that we agreed to when we signed onto the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention Against Torture. I have yet to see any law, act, convention or expert use your definition of torture.

    I'll ask two questions before giving up on any hope of constructive dialogue:
    • Do you believe that waterboarding is torture by the definition of the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture?

    • Would you be comfortable if the pain/death definition of torture that you described became the standard used against our people? In other words, should it be acceptable for our troops to be subject to the same interrogation techniques that we have used?
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/25/2009 at 06:08 PM.
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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    What's that method where water drops on your head at a slow steady rate until you finally lose your sanity?
    Chinese water torture. We were told during SERE training that were many variables of it, but the odds of it being used were slim to none, given the amount of time it would take.

    Addendum: MythBusters did an episode on it:
    Last edited by palandri; 05/25/2009 at 05:50 PM.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  14. #134  
    Interesting article about waterboarding, from a former master instructor and chief of training at the SERE School:

    I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself

    Among his statements: "when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it....In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning....Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  15. #135  
    If the person in charge determined that the need was great enough, then fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If making it about me makes you comfortable, that's fine. Actually, I only made the point that your definition of torture, as well as mine, are irrelevant. What matters is the definition that we agreed to when we signed onto the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention Against Torture. I have yet to see any law, act, convention or expert use your definition of torture.

    I'll ask two questions before giving up on any hope of constructive dialogue:
    • Do you believe that waterboarding is torture by the definition of the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture?

    • Would you be comfortable if the pain/death definition of torture that you described became the standard used against our people? In other words, should it be acceptable for our troops to be subject to the same interrogation techniques that we have used?
  16. #136  
    I'll ask two questions before giving up on any hope of constructive dialogue:

    * Do you believe that waterboarding is torture by the definition of the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture?

    * Would you be comfortable if the pain/death definition of torture that you described became the standard used against our people? In other words, should it be acceptable for our troops to be subject to the same interrogation techniques that we have used?
    If the person in charge determined that the need was great enough, then fine.
    Do you have any answer to the first question? Based upon your answer above, I'm assuming that you don't really believe in the Geneva Conventions, but I don't want to make an assumption, so I'd really be curious as to your opinion.

    As to the second question: let's imagine that one of our troops fell into the hands of, for example, North Korea. If the North Korean in charge of interrogating our soldier determined that he really had a need to determine if our guy was a spy, then you'd be okay with him using whatever techniques he desired, even if it caused mental / physical suffering, as long as it didn't cause death. So prolonged nudity, sleep deprivation, waterboarding, deprivation of solid food, stress positions, sexual humiliation, desecration of holy scriptures, deprivation of basic hygiene, etc., is an acceptable action to take against our troops?

    The whole point of the Geneva Conventions and the UN Conventions are to prevent everyone's troops from being subjected to inhumane treatment. I couldn't imagine sending our troops into danger without those protections.

    By the way, does anyone think it's disconcerting that Canada now lists the United States as a country in which prisoners risk torture - it's "Torture Watch List"? http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/25/2009 at 07:14 PM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    By the way, does anyone think it's disconcerting that Canada now lists the United States as a country in which prisoners risk torture - it's "Torture Watch List"? CTV.ca | Canada puts U.S. on torture watch list: CTV
    Unfortunately, I can't blame them.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is not the tough stuff - just a statement of fact. Heck you can die staring at the computer. Really now. You really do get nasty in your comments, don't you? Typically liberal.
    Actually, Im a Republican, so dont act like you know me just because I disagree with you.

    Thats the problem with "Republicans" such as yourself. Stop hiding behind the party, dragging it down to your scummy level & start a new one already why dont you. People like you are an embarrassment.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by peestandingup View Post
    Actually, Im a Republican, so dont act like you know me just because I disagree with you.

    Thats the problem with "Republicans" such as yourself. Stop hiding behind the party, dragging it down to your scummy level & start a new one already why dont you. People like you are an embarrassment.
    Did you miss this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Let me use my 'Moderator Voice'

    Is it really that difficult?

    You guys can't have a civilized debate?

    Show me that you can.
    Please!
    Here's some nice reading:
    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...uncements.html
    Just call me Berd.
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    There is a difference between
    Accusation 1: Bush/Cheney, being accused of ordering torture in violation of the law, and
    Accusation 2: Nancy Pelosi, being accused of having been told about it, and then misrepresenting when she knew. She has never been accused of ordering, being complicit, or even approving of it. Her "crime" is political, not legal.
    I'm sorry. How is it that being complicit during the execution of a crime not something that would normally fall under "legal"? Last I checked, you can still be convicted of murder, even if you didn't pull the trigger.

    Please fess up. You apply black and white when it suits you, and degrees when it suits you as well. So typical of the left, imo.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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