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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Please provide any evidence of this.
    You are kidding right? please provide "evidence" that any useful information and truthful information was attained. Statements by the Bush adminsitration don't count without transcripts .

    We know for a fact that Cheney (falsely) stated that interrogations in Guantanamo "revealed" Al Queda was training in Iraq with chem and Bio weapons. Later we found that was all faked by the administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    We've been told that it has worked, and that attacks have been thwarted. Obama refuses to release the documents that describe in detail the 3 or 4 people we've waterboarded, and what the results were.
    Being "told" it worked by the people who are trying to justify it doesn't count -- ok. They could and would state that in any circumstance.

    Torturers always say it "works. " During the Salem witch trials torture "worked" in getting people to admit having sex with the devil and indict others as well. Therefore the torturing "worked."

    And why are you blaming Obama? Did the Busha demonstration release transcripts of the waterboard interrogations? (no.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You seriously believe that if we don't, they won't?
    So you believe the US putting Japanese on Trial for waterboarding was a "show trial" and "kangaroo court"? Interesting. The Japanese waterboarded US pilots bombing innocent civilian targets.

    (don't think I against bombing civilian targets, my dad was was with the 11th AB in the Philippines after two years, half of it combat, with the 101 and was training to jump on Japan, and Hiroshima was an existential positive for me.)

    I simply believe what experts involved in interrogations state over and over: torturing wastes time and resources and creates false leads. It did when , they tortured to create false information associating Iraq with Al Queda. They heard what they wanted

    Look at it like a libertarian -- all government actions and bureaucrats like the CIA torturers are self perpetuating. All government programs will be alleged to "work" even when they fail as the torture failed
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    #102  
    Waterboarding was used to get information. Not as justification for the war in Iraq. Cheney can't open his mouth without you guys twisting it as far as you can. I trust that the purpose of waterboarding was to bring down Al Queda, not for political reasons. You choose to believe otherwise. Thats your right. But you have yet to prove that the reason it was employed was political, in my opinion. Did they want to find out if there was a link between Saddam and Al Queda? I suppose. But that was NOT the premise for going to war in Iraq.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    We know for a fact that Cheney (falsely) stated that interrogations in Guantanamo "revealed" Al Queda was training in Iraq with chem and Bio weapons. Later we found that was all faked by the administration.
    What was faked by the administration? The training of Al Qaeda in Iraq, or that it was derived from waterboard interrogations? I'd like to respond, but need that clarification please.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I trust that the purpose of waterboarding was to bring down Al Queda, not for political reasons.
    What woudl make you "trust" that? Why don't you read any study of intelligence agencies. I am not talking about left wing stuff but books and as studies done by mainstream historians. Intelligence has always been deeply politicized.

    Intellgience agencies tell the leaders what they want to hear.

    do you even realize the constant reorganization of our intelligence since donovan and oss/oww to cia, and all the changes since have all been in response to the endemic and constant failures of intelligence -- due to politicization!

    What do you think happened with the "WMD in Iraq" issue? I actually like George Tenet and know his family. But you need to know it is institutional need ot satisfy the political goals of an administration that creates the "slam dunk" stuff and the specter of Powell, Negroponte and Tenet sitting there at the UN blowing US credibility to shreds.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What was faked by the administration? The training of Al Qaeda in Iraq, or that it was derived from waterboard interrogations? I'd like to respond, but need that clarification please.
    The claimed training of al Queda in WMD by the Iraqi government was claimed to have been a benifit of the "enhanced techniques."

    I also want you to know I think waterboarding was the wrong thing to use on KSM. I think he ought to have had his eyes gouged out for cutting off Perl's head on video. I think they should have done that, torn off his testicles and thrown him overboard in the Indian Ocean (where he was held). What they should not have done is believe a think he said since it is easy for him to simply make anything up he wished and could be claimed as a thwarted attack. People under torture just make it up -- that is a well known fact -- you get everything but the truth.
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    What do you think happened with the "WMD in Iraq" issue? I actually like George Tenet and know his family. But you need to know it is institutional need ot satisfy the political goals of an administration that creates the "slam dunk" stuff and the specter of Powell, Negroponte and Tenet sitting there at the UN blowing US credibility to shreds.
    I've never subscribed to the "WMD in Iraq" issue as the reason we went in to Iraq. The only people who were, were leftists trying to make it in to an issue. Thats right up there with "we went in to Iraq so Haliburton and Cheney can get control of their oil". Both were weak and tired arguments, driven by the left leaning media, and meaninless. While WMD was definitely a concern while going in to Iraq, it wasn't the "why" we went in. And looky here, we didn't take their oil after all.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I've never subscribed to the "WMD in Iraq" issue as the reason we went in to Iraq. The only people who were, were leftists trying to make it in to an issue.
    WMD was the primary reason that we were initially told the war was necessary. The Joint Resolution is here, and you can see that most of the rationale was related to WMD. The bulk of the remaining elements were related to 9/11, even though we of course know that there was no link to Iraq:

    Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/22/2009 at 02:26 PM.
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  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Waterboarding was used to get information. Not as justification for the war in Iraq. Cheney can't open his mouth without you guys twisting it as far as you can. I trust that the purpose of waterboarding was to bring down Al Queda, not for political reasons. You choose to believe otherwise. Thats your right. But you have yet to prove that the reason it was employed was political, in my opinion. Did they want to find out if there was a link between Saddam and Al Queda? I suppose. But that was NOT the premise for going to war in Iraq.
    Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff for then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, stated that "the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002--well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion--its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa'ida."

    Conservative radio host Mancow Muller recently was waterboarded and immediately changed his opinion about whether it's torture:
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/22/2009 at 07:21 PM.
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  9. #109  
    Please note how fast he recovered - torture? Not at all. He was so injured that it took him 10 seconds or so to get right back to his normal self. It did though wake him up to the fact that he THOUGHT he was drowning.
  10. #110  
    I love how the Neocons turn the issue around into whether or not she knew or didnt instead of focusing on who actually ORDERED and PERFORMED the act.

    LOL, spin it guys. Spin it!
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by peestandingup View Post
    I love how the Neocons turn the issue around into whether or not she knew or didnt instead of focusing on who actually ORDERED and PERFORMED the act.

    LOL, spin it guys. Spin it!
    Okay. Thinks it's okay, but says she doesn't think it's okay. Can't spin it better than that. And people excuse, or disregard? Or blame someone else?

    Believe what you want.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Okay. Thinks it's okay, but says she doesn't think it's okay. Can't spin it better than that. And people excuse, or disregard? Or blame someone else?

    Believe what you want.
    I dont believe her. And that wasnt my point.

    If she lied, throw the book at her. But lets not forget the people that actually allowed this to happen in the first place. You know, like the last administration. Something tells me some of you guys will though & continue to pound in the "but but, she lied about knowing. Thats much worse."

    Grasping for straws much these days?
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Please note how fast he recovered - torture? Not at all. He was so injured that it took him 10 seconds or so to get right back to his normal self. It did though wake him up to the fact that he THOUGHT he was drowning.
    And he revealed in an interview later that he would have said anything to get it to stop....which is sort of the point about its effectiveness. And he lasted 6 seconds, had control over when it stopped, and only had it done to him once. In a real situation, that of course isn't the case. They have waterboarded people for as long as 2 minutes, and applied it 180 times. I find it amazing that you feel can declare that its not torture with such certainty, and believe that your opinion is more credible than someone who has actually gone through the process.

    So if people who have gone through it have called it torture, John McCain has said it, David Petraus has said it, the Geneva Conventions and Army Field Manual clearly don't allow it. I'm really curious as to what basis are you using to decide that its not torture. It fascinates me as to the mental gymnastics ideologues use to justify their preconceived opinions, in defiance of enormous evidence that contradicts it.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/23/2009 at 11:21 AM.
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  14. #114  
    In this case, I still do not believe it is torture. Torture involves physical pain, this does not involve physical pain. Messing with the mind does not fit the description in my mind.

    As for the statement above concerning proving something valuable has been gained from the act, well that has been asked for by Cheney (remember he should know) and the response has been not to release anything. Funny, Barry Obama releases only what he wants and we talk about transparency and responsible action. Looser - shame he is not qualified to do his own thinking.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    In this case, I still do not believe it is torture. Torture involves physical pain, this does not involve physical pain. Messing with the mind does not fit the description in my mind.
    Well, if you decide to pick a narrow definition such as that, it may not be torture. Can you at least meet me halfway and acknowledge that it is torture as defined by the Geneva Convention and the UN Conventions against torture?


    By the way, here is a list of countries that our own State Department condemns for violating human rights. It's interesting to take note of what we state as abuses when done by other countries. You'll note that they are not limited to causing pain:

    “Enduring Freedom:” U.S. Criticisms of Mistreatment and Torture Practices
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/23/2009 at 04:11 PM.
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    In this case, I still do not believe it is torture. Torture involves physical pain, this does not involve physical pain. Messing with the mind does not fit the description in my mind.
    I dare you to try it & then tell us what you think.
  17. #117  
    And what kind of stupid statement is that? If the opportunity were here then why not? I have been kicked in the face by a horse, kicked in the stomach by a horse, gone under a truck on I-75 riding a motorcycle - I survived them and others. I am sure I will survive waterboarding. As I stated above, no physical harm in my book = no torture. Plain and simple.

    Bujin, they may consider it torture, but I do not. No sleep, strong lights - anything that does not permanently injure is not what I would throw in the torture arena.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Please note how fast he recovered - torture? Not at all. He was so injured that it took him 10 seconds or so to get right back to his normal self. It did though wake him up to the fact that he THOUGHT he was drowning.
    Sorry, Ben, but torture is torture regardless of recovery time... LOL
    Grant Smith
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  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, they may consider it torture, but I do not. No sleep, strong lights - anything that does not permanently injure is not what I would throw in the torture arena.
    OK... sleep deprivation can KILL YOU. Waterboarding can KILL YOU.

    I consider DEATH a 'permanent injury'...

    And, yes, many other things can kill you, too. But before anyone tries to drop that fallacious argument, those things are not being imposed upon anyone else in an attempt to garner information and, if they are, I would consider them torturous as well.
    Last edited by gksmithlcw; 05/25/2009 at 02:27 AM.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  20. #120  
    Sleep deprivation can kill you if it is over a long period of time, but really now, not from what is being done to them. Waterboarding can kill, but not in the situation here - the documents clearing indicate medical personnel are immediately available. So, not a big deal.
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