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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    And that is my point. If we're going to run Pelosi into the ground for knowing that the torture might occur, we're going to have to run many more into the ground for far worse...
    Exactly! So do it.
    Run her into the ground for the crime she committed, and then move on to the next one involved.

    Maybe that's unrealistic, but it is totally skewed to say 'let her off because we don't feel like going through the hassle of rounding the others up.'

    Edit: And I wasn't implying that's what you meant.
    Just call me Berd.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Exactly! So do it.
    Run her into the ground for the crime she committed, and then move on to the next one involved.

    Maybe that's unrealistic, but it is totally skewed to say 'let her off because we don't feel like going through the hassle of rounding the others up.'
    You are correct.

    However, do you honestly think the proponents of frying Pelosi will also be proponents of the latter?

    In my opinion, it is all or nothing (really, it needs to be ALL) here. And, as I mentioned earlier, there were far more severe crimes committed in this debacle that need more severe addressing then just knowing that it may (and, frankly, would) happen and not speaking up.

    Either way, the issue needs to be addressed across the board but I don't see it happening.
    Grant Smith
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    You're right. However, do you honestly think the proponents for frying Pelosi will also be proponents for the latter?
    No I don't, and that's the shame for both sides of the aisle.
    2 kids, each pointing at the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Either way, the issue needs to be addressed across the board but I don't see it happening.
    Nope, I don't see it happening either.
    Just call me Berd.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Either way, the issue needs to be addressed across the board but I don't see it happening.
    Objective morality and ethics....what a novel concept!
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    #85  
    Just for the record, I do not want Waterboarding to be used as a normal interrogation tactic, but I do want it on the table for use when authorized, as needed. It's a rough tactic, but hardly Spanish Inquisition stuff, e.g., disemboweling, skinning alive, maiming, burning, etc.

    The other point I have is this: When we start spouting morals and principles with regards to waterboarding, lets at least not forget the context for it's employment. We're talking about protection of innocent civilians, as opposed to the control of civilians, as with other more sinister and corrupt governments.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The other point I have is this: When we start spouting morals and principles with regards to waterboarding, lets at least not forget the context for it's employment. We're talking about protection of innocent civilians, as opposed to the control of civilians, as with other more sinister and corrupt governments.
    Need I refer once more to the UN and Geneva Conventions sited above?

    Torture is torture, and it is morally and ethically wrong and ineffective, to boot.

    And the corruption level of our government is a subject for another thread... LOL
    Grant Smith
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    eNVENT Technologies
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    You are correct.

    However, do you honestly think the proponents of frying Pelosi will also be proponents of the latter?

    In my opinion, it is all or nothing (really, it needs to be ALL) here. And, as I mentioned earlier, there were far more severe crimes committed in this debacle that need more severe addressing then just knowing that it may (and, frankly, would) happen and not speaking up.

    Either way, the issue needs to be addressed across the board but I don't see it happening.
    With all respect, sir, which "debacle" are you referring to with the "far more severe crimes"? I thought the thread was focused on the Pelosi debacle. It seems to me that you're wanting to expand the thread back to what every liberal wants, and that's the lynching/impeaching of Bush and Cheney. I must admit, I still don't understand what their severe crimes were. Last I checked, we haven't had a terrorist attack here in this country since 9/11. How is that a bad thing?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    With all respect, sir, which "debacle" are you referring to with the "far more severe crimes"?
    Without getting into specific arguments back and forth once again, I think the main point was that ordering torture, in violation of the law and international treaties, is far more serious than simply being briefed on it and not being forthcoming about it.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/21/2009 at 03:37 PM.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Need I refer once more to the UN and Geneva Conventions sited above?

    Torture is torture, and it is morally and ethically wrong and ineffective, to boot.

    And the corruption level of our government is a subject for another thread... LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    As a person of conscience, I agree that her guilt in the matter is not excusable any more than Bush's and Cheney's. However, there ARE degrees of severity which must be considered. This is not a black and white issue.
    Ok, so when do you want to apply "black and white", and when do you want "degrees of severity"? Please clue us in, cause you're all over the board, it seems, depending on who we're talking about; Bush/Cheney and torture, or Pelosi and torture.

    If we can agree that there are degrees of the level of interrogation techniques, some of which are out of bounds, some are used routinely, and some are used only in extreme circumstance with high level approval (i.e., a dirty bomb is about to be exploded in NYC), that would be awesome.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #90  
    Sorry I have to run off. Thanks again for the debate. While its true that some of you make me scratch my head, you also make me think!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, so when do you want to apply "black and white", and when do you want "degrees of severity"? Please clue us in, cause you're all over the board, it seems, depending on who we're talking about; Bush/Cheney and torture, or Pelosi and torture.
    There is a difference between
    Accusation 1: Bush/Cheney, being accused of ordering torture in violation of the law, and
    Accusation 2: Nancy Pelosi, being accused of having been told about it, and then misrepresenting when she knew. She has never been accused of ordering, being complicit, or even approving of it. Her "crime" is political, not legal.

    If we can agree that there are degrees of the level of interrogation techniques, some of which are out of bounds, some are used routinely, and some are used only in extreme circumstance with high level approval (i.e., a dirty bomb is about to be exploded in NYC), that would be awesome.
    There already is an accepted standard: the Geneva Convention. Our country has survived 240 years without resorting to torture. Other levels of interrogation have, as previously posted, been shown to damage our standing in the world (thereby making us less safe), have never been shown to be effective, and are against the law. Jack Bauer aside, torture isn't effective in the "ticking time bomb" scenario you present. (You don't need to believe me on this, look at post #63 for other sources)

    The problem with "high level approval" is that you end up with exactly the situation we are now dealing with: torture allegedly being approved for political gain.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/21/2009 at 03:49 PM.
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  12. #92  
    With all topics it can be difficult to keep it directed to one point, when the account is considered as a whole.

    But in keeping with --> "Nancy Pelosi = Obfuscation. Lies about knowing about waterboarding." <--

    Looking at her case as to knowing about something illegal being done, is just that.

    Back to my illustration:
    The guy doing that horrendous thing in his basement needs to be judged severely.
    Did I know about it and not report it, and so allowed it to continue?
    I'm a disgusting person and need to be judged.
    Not in relationship to other worse crimes.
    Judged based on me and what I did/didn't do.

    Not; I'm off the hook because I'm not the one who did the crime.
    Or; I should be given a break because people bigger than me also didn't do anything.
    Just call me Berd.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    There is a difference between
    Accusation 1: Bush/Cheney, being accused of ordering torture in violation of the law, and
    Accusation 2: Nancy Pelosi, being accused of having been told about it, and then misrepresenting when she knew. She has never been accused of ordering, being complicit, or even approving of it. Her "crime" is political, not legal.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Back to my illustration:
    The guy doing that horrendous thing in his basement needs to be judged severely.
    Did I know about it and not report it, and so allowed it to continue?
    I'm a disgusting person and need to be judged.
    Not in relationship to other worse crimes.
    Judged based on me and what I did/didn't do.

    Not; I'm off the hook because I'm not the one who did the crime.
    Or; I should be given a break because people bigger than me also didn't do anything.
    I don't think there is much more to discuss. It seems that most of us are in agreement.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
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    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  14. #94  
    I spent a couple of years on the hill a couple of decades ago but not much has changed. here is the thing. this meeting was not on the record. it was not transcribed. There is no mechanism to fiocre depositions of all attendees, CIA, Members of Congress etc, and if there was you would get 20 different t accounts if 19 people attended.

    Since Republicans and Democrats have both accused the CIA of misleading members on scores of occasions, to be fair you would need to investigate and depose parties for for the last few hundred CIA secret briefings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    With all respect, sir, which "debacle" are you referring to with the "far more severe crimes"? I thought the thread was focused on the Pelosi debacle. It seems to me that you're wanting to expand the thread back to what every liberal wants, and that's the lynching/impeaching of Bush and Cheney. I must admit, I still don't understand what their severe crimes were. Last I checked, we haven't had a terrorist attack here in this country since 9/11. How is that a bad thing?
    Seriously discussing the torture and its authorization would be a core part of any serious discussion of the Pelosi issue. They aren't logically separable.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The other point I have is this: When we start spouting morals and principles with regards to waterboarding, lets at least not forget the context for it's employment. We're talking about protection of innocent civilians, as opposed to the control of civilians, as with other more sinister and corrupt governments.
    Seriously, the waterboarding appears to have been used to force statements on justification for the war agaisnt Iraq.

    You have to realize the watrerboarding drives its own rational. If you waterboard someone enough they will confess to anything. So therefore water-boarding "works."

    Now when it comes to "context" let's not forget the context is permanent. Protection of innocent civilians is a universal and permanent context and one that could e used against our own troops and personnel.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Just for the record, I do not want Waterboarding to be used as a normal interrogation tactic, but I do want it on the table for use when authorized, as needed. It's a rough tactic, but hardly Spanish Inquisition stuff, e.g., disemboweling, skinning alive, maiming, burning, etc.
    Rough tactic? You can easily kill somebody waterboarding them.

    Then you want it on the table when authorized?

    You made this statement earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...I have a 13 year old daughter (yeah, I got a late start. I'm old enough to be her grandfather). I can tell you that if her life was in danger because of a terrorist plot, and I had a prisoner that knew details about that plot, I'd whip out a board and a waterhose so fast your head would spin.
    Let say your daughter dates a guy, that "they" later find out has ties to an extremist group, and they want to find out where he is since a lot of innocent lives are at stake. "They" think your daughter may know where he is. Do you see where I am going with this?
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Let say your daughter dates a guy, that "they" later find out has ties to an extremist group, and they want to find out where he is since a lot of innocent lives are at stake. "They" think your daughter may know where he is. Do you see where I am going with this?
    A 13 year old dating???

    And if so, do you really think it would take waterboarding to get it out of her?
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    A 13 year old dating???

    And if so, do you really think it would take waterboarding to get it out of her?
    You totally missed the point.
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Rough tactic? You can easily kill somebody waterboarding them.

    Then you want it on the table when authorized?

    You made this statement earlier:



    Let say your daughter dates a guy, that "they" later find out has ties to an extremist group, and they want to find out where he is since a lot of innocent lives are at stake. "They" think your daughter may know where he is. Do you see where I am going with this?
    My daughter would tell them what she knew because she'd want to do the right thing. But yes, if she withheld information that had a high potential of costing lives, I'd be the one holding her down while they waterboarded her.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Seriously, the waterboarding appears to have been used to force statements on justification for the war agaisnt Iraq.
    Please provide any evidence of this.
    You have to realize the watrerboarding drives its own rational. If you waterboard someone enough they will confess to anything. So therefore water-boarding "works."
    We've been told that it has worked, and that attacks have been thwarted. Obama refuses to release the documents that describe in detail the 3 or 4 people we've waterboarded, and what the results were.
    Now when it comes to "context" let's not forget the context is permanent. Protection of innocent civilians is a universal and permanent context and one that could e used against our own troops and personnel.
    You seriously believe that if we don't, they won't?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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