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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, are we torturing our troops?
    Maybe David Morris, SERE graduate, is a better person to answer that:

    "I can attest that the school isn't relevant to the threats American soldiers face abroad....While I was in the school, I lived like an animal. I was hooded, beaten, starved, stripped naked, and hosed down in the December air until I became hypothermic. At one point, I couldn't speak because I was shivering so hard. Thrown into a 3-by-3-foot cage with only a rusted coffee can to **** into, I was told that the worst had yet to come. I was violently interrogated three times. When I forgot my prisoner number, I was strapped to a gurney and made to watch as a fellow prisoner was water-boarded a foot away from me. I will never forget the sound of that young sailor choking, seemingly near death, paying for my mistake. I remember only the sound because, try as I might, I couldn't force myself to look at his face...I was incarcerated at SERE for only a few days, but my mind quickly disintegrated." He thinks its torture, and would know better than you or I.

    Former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, and Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff for then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, have reported that interrogators at Gitmo were under "pressure" to produce evidence of non-existent ties between al Qaida and Iraq. In other words, torture was used for political ends, not to protect citizens.

    FBI interrogator Ali Soufan, who successfully gained intelligence from Abu Zubaydah before the CIA decided to waterboard him and he shut down, testified to Congress that the enhanced interrogation techniques were "ineffective, slow and unreliable, and as a result harmful to our efforts to defeat al-Qaida."

    On that note, I'll leave you to go back to the convenient story about Pelosi that has been pushed to distract from the real story about torture.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/17/2009 at 10:19 AM.
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  2. #22  
    Preparation for what might come and how bad it might be. From the description above, is that torture or is what McCain went through torture? There really is a BIG difference between the 2. McCain was permanently injured, Morris was not. So let us go back to the convenient story about Pelosi. Is it torture she was in favor for or just getting information? I do remember someone somewhere asking if there was more we could do.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think it's amusing that Judge Richard Posner, a prominent Reagan appointee, wrote recently that the conservative movement suffers from “intellectual deterioration.”

    The politics of hate, in which political opponents are treated as enemies and/or un-American (see above messages for examples), is the reason that the Republican Party is, in the words of Republican Senator Olympia Snowe, "continuing to retract into a regional party".

    Overall, the two-party system is a good thing. I hope the Republican party can find a strategy other than simply becoming older, whiter and angrier....or they will continue their death march toward irrelevance.

    You are trying to say it is intellectual deterioration to point out the disingeniousness of Pelosi's evasion and lying about what she knew to the American public?

    I think it has become typical for democrats, when backed into a corner, to attack the intelligence of those who oppose anyone in their party or their agenda. What was that about politics of hate, again? Incidentally, if you want to see hatred, simply visit any liberal blog just for a start.

    To attempt to deflect the focus away from the fact that Pelosi is lying here is, well, the height of intellectual deterioration AND dishonesty. Nice try, though.

    If the democrats can't face the problems within their own party HONESTLY, they will most certainly return to the political irrelevance they recently knew all too well themselves. Regardless of whatever so-called republican anger, age or change in hair color you want to talk about, they are on the same inevitable road to disapproval if behavior similar to Pelosi`s continues.



    ".....I hope the party can find a strategy other than simply becoming older, whiter and angrier....or they will continue their death march toward irrelevance....."


    You know, I seem to remember very clearly when those sentiments were regularly directed at the democrats when they couldn`t win to lose during the past EIGHT YEARS.
    Last edited by treobk214; 05/17/2009 at 01:26 PM.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I think it has become typical for democrats, when backed into a corner, to attack the intelligence of those who oppose anyone in their party or their agenda.
    I'm not a Democrat - I'm currently an Independent (and former Reagan Republican) who voted Republican in every presidential election since '80 (except for a Perot vote once).

    And the statement about intellectual deterioration was made by Republican Richard Posner, about his own party.

    To attempt to deflect the focus away from the fact that Pelosi is lying here is, well, the height of intellectual deterioration AND dishonesty. Nice try, though.
    My opinion is that if Nancy Pelosi was complicit in authorizing torture, she should pay the same price as every other member of the Intelligence Committee who had the same level of complicity, regardless of party. The dishonesty occurs when people ignore those that made the actual decisions about torture, but then want to string up Pelosi for her role, simply because Republicans dislike her. You can't have it both ways.

    You know, I seem to remember very clearly when those sentiments were regularly directed at the democrats when they couldn`t win to lose during the past EIGHT YEARS.
    I agree, the Dems faced the exact same issue, and they made changes that allowed them to rebound. However, the Republican party doesn't seem to be willing to make the same changes - they prefer party purity (and pushing away moderates such as Powell, Snowe, Huntsman and McCain) to actually remaining a viable party. They need to recognize that having a "very committed 20%" of the electorate isn't the path back to power; for that, you need "50% + 1".

    “If you don’t like change, you’ll going to like irrelevance even less.” - General Eric Shinseki, Chief of Staff, U.S. Army
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/17/2009 at 09:28 PM.
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  5. #25  
    Had the republican party gone with party purity, then it would have won by a landslide. Look at how Regan did and he got something like 48 or 49 states. McCain a moderate? No, McCain is a progressive and republican only by name.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Had the republican party gone with party purity, then it would have won by a landslide. Look at how Regan did and he got something like 48 or 49 states. McCain a moderate? No, McCain is a progressive and republican only by name.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on that. In my mind, that's the entire party's problem summed up right there: Republicans continually look back on Reagan, of whom I was a real fan, but those 1980-era political strategies simply don't work for today's electorate. And, of course, anyone who is a moderate Republican (McCain, Powell, Olympia Snowe, John Huntsman) isn't a "real Republican".

    The fact is that only just over 20% of people identify themselves as Republicans. If they can't win over more Independents, they certainly won't win at all, much less in a landslide. There simply aren't enough people who simultaneously have both the fiscal and social conservative beliefs required for them to get the votes.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/18/2009 at 11:25 AM.
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Republicans took a trouncing in the last two elections and are shouting about everything just to try to get some traction.

    ..but the American public is sick of made-up controversies and trying to change the subject.

    The Republicans SUDDENLY so concerned about who knew about torture? A Republican President and rubberstamp Congress introduced it and condoned it for years.
    Lol. Wow. So you're saying that if the Republicans did it, its' ok for the Democrats?

    Actually, you based your comment on false assumptions. Let me see if I can help you.

    It's not that Republicans are suddenly concerned about torture. We're concerned when a leader in congress flip flops and gets caught in lies about what they knew. Democrats would be different if the shoe was on the other foot?

    Pelosi wants to lead the charge in legally going after those in the Bush admin that knew about and condoned what this administration has termed as "illegal torture". Whoops, wait a minute.... it looks like Pelosi knew about and condoned "illegal torture". It's not the torture Repubs are concerned about, it's the lying flip flopper Pelosi.

    Pelosi is a disgrace. She should step down.
    The Republicans SUDDENLY so concerned with the national debt and deficit? Bush doubled our debt by $5 trillion with an unnecessary war and left the world in an economic shambles.
    The Democrats voted for this war, and for the money spent on it. This administration has spent far far more, and in just months. The days of blaming the Bush administration are over.
    If England is any guide, the Republican party has no hope in future elections unless it starts to welcome minorities, gays, educated people, etc.

    In England, the Conservative Party just got more and more conservative and, accordingly, hasn't won a majority since Thatcher. If the Republican Party doesn't get more moderate like the Democratic Party had to do after Carter, it's doomed.

    Yell all you want--America isn't listening anymore.
    Who's yelling?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #28  
    In before the lock.
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  9. #29  
    I think we should waterboard the CIA director and Pelosi. Then we can find out who is telling the truth.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    In before the lock.
    I see no reason to lock or close.
    I'm honestly impressed.

    It's when people start personally insulting other TC members.

    It's actually pretty simple -
    Attack the Topic not the Member.
    Just call me Berd.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's not the torture Repubs are concerned about
    That's the real pity.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That's the real pity.
    Now, you know he didn't mean that.

    In context.
    Just call me Berd.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    I think we should waterboard the CIA director and Pelosi. Then we can find out who is telling the truth.
    I'm OK with that personally. I'd even be OK with adding all the members of Congress to the list.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    It's not the torture Repubs are concerned about
    Now, you know he didn't mean that.

    In context.
    Well, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. However, the underlying point is that serious: the whole issue about Pelosi is a purposeful distraction from the issue of torture, which both parties should very well be concerned about.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/18/2009 at 05:39 PM.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm OK with that personally. I'd even be OK with adding all the members of Congress to the list.
    Drug test 'em, too...
  16. #36  
    No, it is not about distraction from the issue of torture. Far from it.

    The real issue here is ethics - she lied. I betcha remember when a republican got caught in a lie - quit was the action taken. Is Nancy going to quit? No, not at all at this time. She will keep making a fool of herself until finally the bus runs over her.

    Bujin, if you give 5 versions of a story to your better half, would she believe you? I know my wife of 29 years would not believe me. Nancy got caught telling a series of lies and that is what the issue is - integrity - openness, ethics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. However, the underlying point is that serious: the whole issue about Pelosi is a purposeful distraction from the issue of torture, which both parties should very well be concerned about.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    No, it is not about distraction from the issue of torture. Far from it.

    The real issue here is ethics - she lied. I betcha remember when a republican got caught in a lie - quit was the action taken. Is Nancy going to quit? No, not at all at this time. She will keep making a fool of herself until finally the bus runs over her.

    Bujin, if you give 5 versions of a story to your better half, would she believe you? I know my wife of 29 years would not believe me. Nancy got caught telling a series of lies and that is what the issue is - integrity - openness, ethics.
    Do you feel the same way about Roger Clemens?

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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    No, it is not about distraction from the issue of torture. Far from it.

    The real issue here is ethics - she lied. I betcha remember when a republican got caught in a lie - quit was the action taken. Is Nancy going to quit? No, not at all at this time. She will keep making a fool of herself until finally the bus runs over her.

    Bujin, if you give 5 versions of a story to your better half, would she believe you? I know my wife of 29 years would not believe me. Nancy got caught telling a series of lies and that is what the issue is - integrity - openness, ethics.
    If she lied, she should pay an appropriate price. Should **** Cheney also pay a price, for influencing the use of torture for political gain? Should he pay a price for lying about the connection between Al Quida and Iraq?

    If the issue is ethics, than I would think that lying about the rationale for the war, and ordering torture would be more serious than lying about whether you were briefed on torture as part of an Intelligence Committee? Shouldn't ethics be applied to both sides?
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ? Who cares? And why would they? Gubmint shouldn't be into this crap anyway.

    Cept maybe they should be looking at their salaries. hollywood, too. you know, if their gonna be looking into this stuff to begin with.
  20. #40  
    And the word "lie" means what?
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