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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    and yet we designate a day to recognize the importance of the Muslim...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Is that just made up? Never heard of it.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one...
    Grant Smith
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  2. #202  
    Goodness, Bujin, it is not made up: Hawaii's House Resolution Proclaiming September 24, 2009, as ISLAM DAY. Does this not smack of something that one should be concerned about - raising one religion above another one and to think Hawaii is a state that is heavily dominated by the democrat party.

    People can celebrate it, but the government frowns upon it, as an atheist that keeps up on things, I am sure you are aware of this.
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Goodness, Bujin, it is not made up: Hawaii's House Resolution Proclaiming September 24, 2009, as ISLAM DAY. Does this not smack of something that one should be concerned about - raising one religion above another one and to think Hawaii is a state that is heavily dominated by the democrat party.

    People can celebrate it, but the government frowns upon it, as an atheist that keeps up on things, I am sure you are aware of this.
    Given the fact that the Christian's have MANY recognized FEDERAL holidays, I don't see one state holiday as an issue.

    And why would the government frown on celebration of a holiday it created?
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Goodness, Bujin, it is not made up: Hawaii's House Resolution Proclaiming September 24, 2009, as ISLAM DAY. Does this not smack of something that one should be concerned about - raising one religion above another one and to think Hawaii is a state that is heavily dominated by the democrat party.

    People can celebrate it, but the government frowns upon it, as an atheist that keeps up on things, I am sure you are aware of this.
    I was not aware of that - thanks! I certainly am not in favor of that. I do think that it is just as concerning as when the US House passed Resolution #847, recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian Faith, for exactly the same reason.

    I hope you'll similarly denounce this, as it also "raises one religion above another":

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=hr110-847
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/28/2009 at 06:03 AM.
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  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #205  
    Ban all holidays! Now get back to work!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ban all holidays! Now get back to work!
    I'm all for that!! Slackers!!
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I'm all for that!! Slackers!!
    LOL

    I don't get MY holidays off from work... And I'm fine with that. ;-)
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  8. #208  
    I can, but will not, as this country is rather one likes it or not, primarily a Christian nation.
  9. #209  
    [quote]
    I do think that it is just as concerning as when the US House passed Resolution #847, recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian Faith, for exactly the same reason.

    I hope you'll similarly denounce this, as it also "raises one religion above another":


    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I can, but will not, as this country is rather one likes it or not, primarily a Christian nation.
    So you don't actually have a concern about "raising one religion over another", as long as its Christianity being recognized. Preventing implementation of philosophies such as that is precisely why we have a separation of church and state.

    Our country is made up primarily (75% and dropping) of Christians. As much as one doesn't like it, that does not make it a Christian nation. By way of analogy: we are also made up primarily of white people, but that doesn't make it a white nation.

    But we've veered into a totally different thread about whether we're a Christian nation.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/28/2009 at 09:44 PM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I can, but will not, as this country is rather one likes it or not, primarily a Christian nation.
    Wrong thread... LMAO

    AND... History disagrees. There may be MANY Christians that live here and practice politics and fight to get their views represented but this is NOT a Christian nation.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  11. #211  
    Goodness, bunches of us must have had a long day.
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Goodness, bunches of us must have had a long day.
    Priceless
    Just call me Berd.
  13. #213  
    Yep. Maybe we should change our focus to the new Supreme Court nominee - you know the one who said things YEARS ago that no one had any problem with and NOW...Obama states he feels she will restate her statement. Sounds like a slightly younger Nancy.
    Last edited by bclinger; 05/30/2009 at 01:45 AM. Reason: on to to or something like that.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Goodness, Bujin, it is not made up: Hawaii's House Resolution Proclaiming September 24, 2009, as ISLAM DAY. Does this not smack of something that one should be concerned about -
    Yeas I am concerned. I am concerned that people are so ignorant about the literally hundreds of resolutions proclaiming christian holidays.

    Back to original point. Republicans have called the CIA liars. Why? Because the CIA lies. Please do look up the stuff that is just being declassified after 50 years.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #215  
    The following is a partial quote from an AP article posted just yesterday:

    Poll: US divided over torture, closing Guantanamo

    ".. The AP-GfK poll shows most Americans have faith in him, with 70 percent saying they are confident of Obama's ability to address terrorism. Nearly all Democrats, two-thirds of independents and just over a third of Republicans express confidence.

    Nearly eight years after terrorists struck on U.S. soil, more than a third of Americans say they worry about the chance that they or their relatives might fall victim to a terrorist attack - essentially unchanged from 35 percent five years ago.

    The poll also shows potential areas of political vulnerability for Obama, indicating he must walk a fine line as he seeks to both protect the country and turn the page on Bush's national security policies.

    Some 52 percent of people say torture can be at least sometimes justified to obtain information about terrorist activities from suspects, an increase from 38 percent in 2005 when the AP last asked the question. More than two-thirds of Republicans say torture can be justified compared with just over a third of Democrats.

    "Sometimes you got to do what you got to do," said Jean Kraft, 69, a Democrat from Pompano Beach, Fla. Still, she added: "I truly don't think we should" torture.

    Others were more pointed.

    "I don't agree with torture, period," said Karl Holt, 65, a Democrat from Amherst, N.Y.

    On Obama's plan to close Guantanamo, 47 percent approve, while 47 percent disapprove. Most Republicans disapprove, while most Democrats approve. Independents are evenly divided.

    Leann Wills, 35, a Republican from Muleshoe, Texas, is among those who oppose closure, saying: "You know the old saying, if it's not broke, don't fix it. So why should we close if it's been working for us all of these years?"

    But Michelle Knutson, 40, a Democrat from Hillsboro, Ore., argues that the indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantanamo undercuts U.S. ideals, saying: "This is not a police state, it's democracy."

    Despite the president's safety assurances, more than half of Americans say they would be worried about the chance of terrorism suspects escaping from U.S. high-security prisons. Yet again, more Republicans express concern than Democrats. Still, the figures indicate that the GOP-fueled fear may be resonating.

    Leading the charge by Republicans against Obama's policies is Cheney. The poll shows nearly a quarter had a favorable opinion of the former vice president, a measure that's risen steadily from a low of 13 percent in one 2007 poll.

    The poll also found one bright spot for the out-of-power GOP: More people identified themselves as Republican than did last month, 23 percent to 18 percent.

    The AP-GfK Poll was conducted May 28 to June 1 by GfK Roper Public Affairs & Media. It involved landline and cell phone interviews with 1,000 adults nationwide and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points.

    ---
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The following is a partial quote from an AP article posted just yesterday:
    Poll: US divided over torture, closing Guantanamo
    polling for torture isn't exactly a good idea. First it is going to vary according to the days news and the sense of fear people have. second the avarge person doesn't know what the experts from US intelligence agencies know, which is that it doesn't work. The average joe and jane watches jack bauer on television and doesn't understand that false leads are more the rue than useful information.

    What do you think poling on torturing Jews during the Spanish inquisition would have told us? I bet that would get 99% public support.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    polling for torture isn't exactly a good idea. First it is going to vary according to the days news and the sense of fear people have. second the avarge person doesn't know what the experts from US intelligence agencies know, which is that it doesn't work.
    Ok, I don't know how to ask this without sounding like I'm being crass, and I'm really not, but you know what the experts from US intelligence agencies know? Last time I checked, Obama had nixed the release of the report on the results of our interrogations. I have to ask you, what's your source? Or is it one of those "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" things?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, I don't know how to ask this without sounding like I'm being crass, and I'm really not, but you know what the experts from US intelligence agencies know? Last time I checked, Obama had nixed the release of the report on the results of our interrogations. I have to ask you, what's your source? Or is it one of those "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" things?
    Seriously it is from reading any number of books, articles, testimony, and indeed academic papers by people in the intelligence business and the military .

    You are making it sound like discussion of interrogation technique efficacy is some kind of very secret thing. It isn't.

    torture does work if you wish to get the subject to confess to something that never happened. It works great if you wish to get an innocent grandmother in 15th century New England to confess to witchcraft, a Jew in 16th Century Spain or Germany to confess to killing Christian children and poisoning wells. It also works if you wish to get al Qaeda suspects to falsely claim WMD in Iraq.
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, I don't know how to ask this without sounding like I'm being crass, and I'm really not, but you know what the experts from US intelligence agencies know? Last time I checked, Obama had nixed the release of the report on the results of our interrogations. I have to ask you, what's your source? Or is it one of those "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" things?
    From earlier in this thread:
    * CIA Inspector General John Helgerwon: the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention."
    * Former CIA officer Bob Baer: It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough"
    * Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism: "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    From earlier in this thread:
    * CIA Inspector General John Helgerwon: the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention."
    * Former CIA officer Bob Baer: It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough"
    * Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism: "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."
    Nice find, but I'm asking for actual results, not opinion or "popular perception". What were the actual results from the interrogations at guantanamo bay? The rest of this is academic discussion and opining.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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