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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Classic. Right up there with "Have you stopped beating your wife?" I don't agree that we are the cause of global warming, nor that we can control the climate. Now can you tone it down a bit please? I really don't like being threatened.
    A. I am not threatening anyone, nor would I.

    B. Moron - *****: a person of subnormal intelligence. Do you disagree that someone who burns down his own home fits this definition? Or, a more appropriate comparison, someone who stands by with a firehose on and in his hand and watches his house burn down...

    C. If you'd like to discuss this further, there was a lengthy thread in these very forums on the subject.

    I believe my post in it was something to the effect of "It doesn't matter what's causing it, it matters that we don't need to help it along." The reason I stopped posting in these types of threads is in there as well.
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    #182  
    An interesting analysis regarding the CAT can be found here.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I never said that.
    no, you just said...

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Prisoners have died in our custody, plus there are many missing prisoners.
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    We don't know how many people have died from waterboarding, nor will we ever find out, nor will be find out how many of the prisoners that have died in our custody died from blunt force. We know it happened and it shouldn't have.
    I should have precisely quoted you. Sorry palandri. But you can't show any instance of someone dying from waterboarding. Or am I wrong? (I know gksmithlcw, fallacy fallacy! I still think its a reasonable question.)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #184  
    this thread feels like it needs closing. Back on track please
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Interestingly, it also offers language that indicates that Pelosi indeed could be legally prosecuted. Thanks again for your input.
    I'm not certain that there's any language that would allow Pelosi, without also allowing for the prosecution of GWB, Cheney, and the Republican members of the Intelligence Committee. What language are you referring to?

    That's the part I'm not certain I understand: are you making the case that she bears more responsibility than the people who actually ordered the torture? I don't see how folks can simultaneously say that (a) the Bush administration did nothing wrong, and (b) Pelosi should be prosecuted for knowing about these activities.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/26/2009 at 02:46 PM.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I'm not certain that there's any language that would allow Pelosi, without also allowing for the prosecution of GWB, Cheney, and the Republican members of the Intelligence Committee. What language are you referring to?

    That's the part I'm not certain I understand: are you making the case that she bears more responsibility than the people who actually ordered the torture? I don't see how folks can simultaneously say that (a) the Bush administration did nothing wrong, and (b) Pelosi should be prosecuted for knowing about these activities.
    To best answer your question, I'll quote CRS Report for Congress regarding the CAT, dated March 11, 2004:

    CAT defines torture as “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person...by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.”

    In accordance with Article 2 of the Convention, parties agree to take effective legislative, administrative, judicial, and other measures to prevent acts of torture from occurring within their territorial jurisdiction. Further, parties are required to ensure that all acts of torture, as well as attempts to commit torture and complicity or participation in torture, are criminal offenses subject to penalty. Importantly, CAT Article 2 makes clear that “no exceptional circumstances whatsoever,” including a state of war or any other public emergency, may be invoked to justify torture.

    In providing its advice and consent to CAT, the US Senate also provided a detailed list of understandings concerning the scope of the Convention’s definition of torture. These understandings are generally reflected via the specific U.S. laws and regulations implementing the Convention. Importantly, under U.S. implementing legislation and regulations, CAT requirements are understood to apply to acts of torture committed by or at the acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. Thus, persons operating under the color of law do not necessarily need to directly engage in acts of torture to be culpable for them. For a public official to acquiesce to an act of torture, that official must, “prior to the activity constituting torture, have awareness of such activity and thereafter breach his or her legal responsibility to intervene to prevent such activity.”
    So, I guess what I'm saying is, if Bush and cheney go down, Pelosi shares equal responsibility, she acquiesced it's use and was in a position to question and stop it, and should go down just as hard.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, I guess what I'm saying is, if Bush and cheney go down, Pelosi shares equal responsibility, she acquiesced it's use and was in a position to question and stop it, and should go down just as hard.
    If she was indeed in a position to question and stop it, then I totally agree with your position and respect the fact that you're not giving either side a pass. An interesting question, though, is whether being briefed puts one in a position to stop it, given that it may have been against the law for her to share classified information. I don't know much about the legal intricacies of Intelligence Committee briefings, and I haven't heard anyone make a definitive statement about what she could or couldn't share.

    That being said, I'm okay with anyone who shared culpability being punished - that would be the point of an investigation. Let's see if one ever happens.
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  8. #188  
    It's almost like we've went full circle.

    If she knew, which we all seem to have agreed, then yes, she should go down.

    She knew, did nothing and so it continued.
    Just call me Berd.
  9. #189  
    We agree totally on this. She needs to go. She knew and lied about her involvement, which is far from doing nothing.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    We agree totally on this. She needs to go. She knew and lied about her involvement, which is far from doing nothing.
    And thus all who ordered it or knew about it, Republicans and Democrats, should likewise be punished. I'm glad we all agree.
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  11. #191  
    Yep - if you go after one side, you gotta go after both sides. Shame the democrat leadership does not open itself up to further persecution in other instances.
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    #192  
    you mean prosecution?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Shame the democrat leadership does not open itself up to further persecution in other instances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    you mean prosecution?
    Too good... ROFLMAO
    Grant Smith
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    eNVENT Technologies
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  14. #194  
    Ahhh..... the ever popular Freudian slip!
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  15. #195  
    No slip. I typed and meant persecution.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Shame the democrat leadership does not open itself up to further persecution in other instances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Ahhh..... the ever popular Freudian slip!
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    No slip. I typed and meant persecution.
    So you're saying you advocate persecution??

    Just... Wow...
    Last edited by gksmithlcw; 05/27/2009 at 07:21 PM.
    Grant Smith
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    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
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    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  17. #197  
    Sure! The democrats persecute the average American, deeming him as stupid and in total need of government intervention on every level. The Christian population in this country is persecuted for its desire to celebrate Christmas and yet we designate a day to recognize the importance of the Muslim...

    Get real.
  18. #198  
    Registered democrat here just stopping in to say, i am so thrilled to see pelosi get busted for this and have to answer for it. It's time for her comeuppance, she is indeed a disgrace. And i'm so glad to see the democrats have to get off their f'g high horse, not that the ones who should ever will but it's still nice to see some that should be, outted. Although I am still moderate and in general prefer more of the democratic platform, I would unregister as a democrat, but there's too many people i wan't to vote against in the local primaries. Either way, it's a joy for me to watch Pelosi take some heat. Now if only we could get rid of her. Of all the people, (other than a certain president i won't mention) she's the one i'd like to see go down first. !!!! Good times.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Sure! The democrats persecute the average American, deeming him as stupid and in total need of government intervention on every level. The Christian population in this country is persecuted for its desire to celebrate Christmas and yet we designate a day to recognize the importance of the Muslim...

    Get real.
    I don't know of any 'day to recognize the importance of the Muslim' but that would be neat, indeed!

    And as far as Christians being persecuted for celebrating Xmas, I don't think so... Xmas is, by far, the most widely celebrated Solstice holiday from my experience and the only complaints I ever hear are how it is too commercial and not religious anymore. So, if anything, it is TOO popular.

    I'm quite real, thanks.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The Christian population in this country is persecuted for its desire to celebrate Christmas
    I could be wrong, but I think people have the ability to celebrate Christmas. After all, they start selling Christmas stuff right around the 4th of July.....

    and yet we designate a day to recognize the importance of the Muslim....
    Is that just made up? Never heard of it.
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