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  1. jewel's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, it's paid for by the taxpayers - because the military personnel don't personally pay the costs, it's publicly financed, so it can be considered socialized.

    Unfortunately, the term "socialized" has been used as a negative term in the US, in order to evoke the term "socialism". People forget that the V.A., Medicare and Medicaid are all publicly funded, and as such are socialized medicine.
    Yeah right. Do you know that the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid are in trillions of dollars in deficit. Socialism and socialized are the same thing and they are bad for any country. Capitalism is a good word that has been smeared more. It is capitalism that made America the most prosperous nation in the face of the earth.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, it's paid for by the taxpayers - because the military personnel don't personally pay the costs, it's publicly financed, so it can be considered socialized.
    Not exactly. If it were truly socialized, nothing would be expected in return. Our military is voluntary.
    Unfortunately, the term "socialized" has been used as a negative term in the US, in order to evoke the term "socialism".
    I am not using it in a negative sense, but 'socialized' evokes 'socialism', because it should. They come from the same root and same socioeconomic ideals.
    People forget that the V.A., Medicare and Medicaid are all publicly funded, and as such are socialized medicine.
    Medicare and Medicaid are certainly truly socialized medicine. The V.A. is borderline since it's for veterans. The care while one is in the military is not truly socialized. Generally speaking, military personnel take less direct compensation for their level of work than in the private sector, so their medical care and other benefits are and should be considered part of their total compensation.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    Yeah right. Do you know that the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid are in trillions of dollars in deficit. Socialism and socialized are the same thing and they are bad for any country. Capitalism is a good word that has been smeared more. It is capitalism that made America the most prosperous nation in the face of the earth.
    Then should we simply eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, and assistance to the V.A.? Do you realize that we are virtually the only wealthy industrialized nation that doesn't provide universal health care?

    I think the problem is that we have equated "socialized medicine" and "universal health care" as one and the same. We tend to perpetuate a single solution (such as government-controlled health care) when there may well be other ways to provide universal access to all.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Your heath care in the Military is socialized medicine. It's paid for, and ran by the government.
    That does not make it socialized de facto. It's easily considered a benefit from your employer as a part of your total compensation package. That level of care is not available for the same cost to anyone in the society. It's only available for a subset of employees of the government and their families.
    I have no idea what the cost is.
    Then the real question is whether or not you've really considered if it's affordable to extend that same standard of care to everyone in the country.
    I am sure you can google it.
    I'm sure I could as well, but that doesn't mean that the information would be available. Since you seemed to think that its cost was within reason compared to what you pay for private insurance, I thought you might have had the numbers handy.
    No idea, please share.
    Just a couple of examples would be the chemical defoliants used in Vietnam (Agent Orange et al) and the LSD experiments. One article about the VA is here.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Then should we simply eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, and assistance to the V.A.? Do you realize that we are virtually the only wealthy industrialized nation that doesn't provide universal health care?
    How do you define universal health care? I think that may be part of the problem in these debates. We use phrases that have become politically charged, and many assume that just because one uses one of those phrases, we automatically assume we know what they mean and what their political leanings are.
    I think the problem is that we have equated "socialized medicine" and "universal health care" as one and the same.
    I think you raise a good point here.
    We tend to perpetuate a single solution (such as government-controlled health care) when there may well be other ways to provide universal access to all.
    I think things get complicated when we try to agree on what 'universal access' means. I'm doubtful that even distributing the costs nationwide, we can afford to give everyone any treatment they might want. That brings up the issue of setting a standard level of care considered 'universal'. As far as I'm aware, most localities already have some sort of 'free clinic' systems.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #26  
    Being government ran doesn't automatically make something bad.

    If that were the case, we should have the worst Military, because it's government ran.

    We should have the worst postal service, because it's government ran.

    We should have worse security at the airports now, because the government replace minimum wage security guards with government security.

    The argument that being government ran is bad makes no sense to me. Somehow letting the millionaire run companies like AIG makes more sense to some people.
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Being government ran doesn't automatically make something bad.
    Quite true. OTOH, it also doesn't mean that it's run efficiently or in the best way it could be run.
    If that were the case, we should have the worst Military, because it's government ran.
    'Best' and 'worst' are going to depend on which criteria things are judged on.
    We should have the worst postal service, because it's government ran.
    In what way does the government run the postal service?
    We should have worse security at the airports now, because the government replace minimum wage security guards with government security.
    You do realize that in many cases, all it was was a change in uniforms, right?
    The argument that being government ran is bad makes no sense to me.
    I agree. It makes just as little sense as arguing that something being government run makes it good.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    How do you define universal health care? I think that may be part of the problem in these debates. We use phrases that have become politically charged, and many assume that just because one uses one of those phrases, we automatically assume we know what they mean and what their political leanings are.
    I absolutely agree with you, Toby. The phrase "socialized medicine" itself doesn't mean anything specific to health policy folks. It can mean the British, gov't-owned system, in which the government owns hospitals and hires doctors, or it can be gov't-financed but privately run, such as Medicare.

    I think things get complicated when we try to agree on what 'universal access' means. I'm doubtful that even distributing the costs nationwide, we can afford to give everyone any treatment they might want. That brings up the issue of setting a standard level of care considered 'universal'. As far as I'm aware, most localities already have some sort of 'free clinic' systems.
    Again I agree. However, that question of affordability is a huge question in and of itself. It is probably out of reach to provide universal health care to all with the current cost of care; however, medical costs in the US are twice that of other countries - we would likely need to tackle this issue before trying to establish any type of universal access structure.

    While most localities provide emergency services, the problem is that, for a considerable number of our citizens, the ER is the primary care provider, so there is no real preventative wellness solution. As a result, smaller costs in proactive care result in larger ER costs.

    This is one of those issues that I truly believe can be solved, but not in the current all-or-nothing, "socialist" vs. "capitalist", ideological culture of Washington.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    In what way does the government run the postal service?
    Well, it's government-owned, with a Board of Directors that is mostly appointed by the President and the Senate. It's in a weird limbo of being an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States".


    The argument that being government ran is bad makes no sense to me.
    I agree. It makes just as little sense as arguing that something being government run makes it good.
    I kind of like Obama's statement that the issue isn't about big government or small government, but about smart government. That sums up my feelings - that ideology can't get in the way of making things work.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    ...You do realize that in many cases, all it was was a change in uniforms, right?...
    No civil service application, no training, just a change in uniform right?

    Toby, I certainly understand the point you are making in regards to the effectiveness of privately ran services vs. the effectiveness of government ran services, and I certainly respect it I just don't think a government ran service is automatically going to be bad.
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  11. jewel's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Then should we simply eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, and assistance to the V.A.? Do you realize that we are virtually the only wealthy industrialized nation that doesn't provide universal health care?

    I think the problem is that we have equated "socialized medicine" and "universal health care" as one and the same. We tend to perpetuate a single solution (such as government-controlled health care) when there may well be other ways to provide universal access to all.
    Did I say that we should? They do help a lot of people but these are unsustainable programs. Do you even know how much of the national budget is being eaten up just by Medicare and Medicaid?

    If you're bragging about the wealthy and industrialized nation's universal health care programs then you should ask a Briton who has pulled out his own teeth because he couldn't get a dental check up. Or a Canadian who goes to the US just to have an MRI.
  12. jewel's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I kind of like Obama's statement that the issue isn't about big government or small government, but about smart government. That sums up my feelings - that ideology can't get in the way of making things work.
    Just another play on words. Mr. Obama's idea of smart government is a government that controls you and limits your freedom. Read his favorite book "Rules for Radicals" and you will find out.

    What made America great? It's founding documents: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Obama has sworn to uphold them but he disregards them.
  13. jewel's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    This is one of those issues that I truly believe can be solved, but not in the current all-or-nothing, "socialist" vs. "capitalist", ideological culture of Washington.
    So what's your solution?
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    If you're bragging about the wealthy and industrialized nation's universal health care programs then you should ask a Briton who has pulled out his own teeth because he couldn't get a dental check up. Or a Canadian who goes to the US just to have an MRI.
    Which is why I've consistently stated that it shouldn't be a forced choice between our current plan and the British model. However, you're proving my point that intelligent discussion can't take place with the current "us vs. them" mentality. I thank you for proving my point.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    Just another play on words. Mr. Obama's idea of smart government is a government that controls you and limits your freedom. Read his favorite book "Rules for Radicals" and you will find out.
    Can you cite any data, other than an allegation from Rush Limbaugh or other conservative columnists, that Obama actually considers "Rules for Radicals" his favorite book? I fully realize that the conservative blogosphere has made this claim, but do you have any actual facts to back that up?

    What made America great? It's founding documents: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Obama has sworn to uphold them but he disregards them.
    Can you cite one specific instance where Obama has disregarded the Constitution? Do you have any actual facts to back up your allegations?

    I think you're demonstrating perfectly the Republican marketing strategy: any opponent is immediately an enemy. Don't discuss issues intelligently, but attack the other person. Make the other person un-American, not simply having a different point of view. The politics of hate, alive and well in the Republican Party - it's why I left it.

    Luckily for this country, the majority of Americans have soundly rejected that tactic, and your views are simply on the fringe of public opinion.
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/26/2009 at 06:26 PM.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    So what's your solution?
    I don't claim to have one... but I believe, as I've stated before, that we need to look at what the drivers are that cause our health system to be so much more expensive. Then we may have an intelligent discussion about how we can provide appropriate coverage to those who don't currently have it.

    In order to get to any solution, people have got to stop this knee-jerk shooting at each other, based upon talking points from either party.
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  17. jewel's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Can you cite any data, other than an allegation from Rush Limbaugh, that Obama actually considers "Rules for Radicals" his favorite book?
    Obama was trained by Chicago's Industrial Areas Foundation, founded in 1940 by the radical organizer Saul Alinsky. In the 1980s, Obama spent years as director of the Developing Communities Project, which operated using Alinsky's strategies, and was involved with two other Alinsky-oriented entities, Acorn and Project Vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Can you cite one specific instance where Obama has disregarded the Constitution? Or are you just parrotting Limbaugh?
    Obama asked a the president of a private company, General Motors, to resign. I think this is constitutional. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think you're demonstrating perfectly the Republican marketing strategy: any opponent is immediately an enemy. Don't discuss issues intelligently, but attack the other person. Make the other person un-American, not simply having a different point of view. Luckily for this country, the majority of Americans have soundly rejected that tactic, and your views are simply on the fringe of public opinion.
    I am not even Republican. You have judged rather rashly my intelligent friend.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    Obama was trained by Chicago's Industrial Areas Foundation, founded in 1940 by the radical organizer Saul Alinsky. In the 1980s, Obama spent years as director of the Developing Communities Project, which operated using Alinsky's strategies, and was involved with two other Alinsky-oriented entities, Acorn and Project Vote.
    Does any of that make "Rules for Radicals" his favorite book? Do you know any specifics of his "training"?

    All that conspiracy-theorizing above is simply a deflection from the fact that the mainstream of America is supportive of his work, and you can't point to a specific method, so have to rely on a "he's a commie" argument. There's a reason that it didn't work in the election...because it's silly and transparent.

    Obama asked a the president of a private company, General Motors, to resign. I think this is constitutional. Right?
    Where is the Constitutional violation? If you're making an allegation, please back it up with facts. In actuality, he said he'd withhold federal funds if the auto industry didn't make changes. It's called accountability - and, by the way, it's exactly the same tactic other administrations have used to make change. For example, No Child Left Behind relies tremendously on restricting federal funds to schools that don't meet certain conditions.

    Reasonable people can disagree with whether that was the right approach, but it's certainly not illegal. Don't let the actual facts dissuade you, though.

    I am not even Republican. You have judged rather rashly my intelligent friend.
    I never said you were - simply that your arguments and sources of information are certainly reflective of the Republican marketing machine. Inaccurate, with a message that the other party is unAmerican. The politics of hate.
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/26/2009 at 06:42 PM.
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, it's government-owned, with a Board of Directors that is mostly appointed by the President and the Senate. It's in a weird limbo of being an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States".
    Exactly my point. The government does not truly run it (or fund it since somewhere in the early 80s from my recollection).
    I kind of like Obama's statement that the issue isn't about big government or small government, but about smart government. That sums up my feelings - that ideology can't get in the way of making things work.
    I kind of like K's statement, "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." The government by polling that we have had for a while now is far more influenced by the latter.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No civil service application, no training, just a change in uniform right?
    How does a civil service application make a difference if the same person is at the check points the day before TSA took over compared to that day? Training can certainly make a difference, but government-run doesn't de facto enter into that equation. My point was that in most cases, that same person was at the checkpoints on both days. Just giving them a uniform with a TSA badge doesn't make them any better or worse at airport security.
    Toby, I certainly understand the point you are making in regards to the effectiveness of privately ran services vs. the effectiveness of government ran services, and I certainly respect it I just don't think a government ran service is automatically going to be bad.
    I don't think it is automatic either. I'm just a skeptic.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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