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  1. #21  
    I do not consider Gitmo as an absolute embarrassment for this country and it was not a betrayal of American values. I also have no problems at all with the Bush Administration memos concerning torture - which were released against the advise of the intelligence community. Obama is doing exactly the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If you can't even consider that Gitmo was an absolute embarrassment for our country and a betrayal of American values, then I'd suggest that you read the Bush Administration memos that were just released regarding torture.

    If you do that and still hold that our approach to Gitmo was entirely misguided, then I'm certainly not going to debate the point with you - if your level of support of the previous administration extends that far, there's no possibility of finding common ground.
  2. #22  
    Well, I really have not come across anyone unlawfully terminated. You speak of the job of a manager, just remember that the employee also has a responsibility to perform.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I do not consider Gitmo as an absolute embarrassment for this country and it was not a betrayal of American values. I also have no problems at all with the Bush Administration memos concerning torture - which were released against the advise of the intelligence community. Obama is doing exactly the same thing.
    Gitmo was a disaster. Orchestrated by Epic Disaster Bush.

    If Americans were handled in such a manner, we all would be up in arms and ready to kill.

    And I'm sure you know very little of the issues with the defense attorneys who represented the detainees... how those brave men and women of the court were handled by the Bush administration was simply astonishing... but expected. No one wanted those detainees to even have true legal representation.

    I do think gitmo was needed, but it was handled badly... very badly. Keeping someone locked up for two years, then saying "we were wrong, you can go home" was wrong.

    But we had the Patriot Act... what did we really expect?
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  4. #24  
    The Patriot Act - an instrument with support from both sides - just like the No Child Left Behind - which the left hammers Bush about, which really came from Kennedy.

    A mistake? Gitmo? Needed? The problems at Gitmo were worked out. Letting terrorists out on the streets of America, maybe in your neighborhood - not a good idea.

    If you hammer Bush, you just gotta hammer the leadership of the left.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    A mistake? Gitmo? Needed? The problems at Gitmo were worked out. Letting terrorists out on the streets of America, maybe in your neighborhood - not a good idea.
    NOBODY has stated that terrorists would be let out on the street. Simply that they would have a chance to be charged for their crimes.

    Colin Powell and Richard Armitage (Powell's second in command at the State Department) have both come out and said that Gitmo should be closed, and that it didn't help gain valuable information, nor did it help our standing in the world.

    However, it did help us look like tough guys, so if that was our goal, yay for us.
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  6. g.711's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post

    ...Did the governor mention kingdoms? I missed that part.

    Yes there is Texas and the rest of y'all...
  7. g.711's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I do not consider Gitmo as an absolute embarrassment for this country and it was not a betrayal of American values. I also have no problems at all with the Bush Administration memos concerning torture - which were released against the advise of the intelligence community. Obama is doing exactly the same thing.

    I agree fully. If anyone thinks that the rest of the world will nto torture our solders when captured you are looking at the world through very rosy glasses.
    Come on man War is War, it should be as horrific, brutal and bloody as possible to get the job done.
    Somewhere America has lost the true reality of War. It s not like T.V. It is for keeps just like a street fight hit hard and fast to render the enemy incapable of continuing the battle.

    As I have told my son many times “Never start a fight but if the fight comes to you at least get a hit in first. Cause where I come from you have to know how to fight or run and its best to be good at both”
  8. #28  
    Yes, it's a pity that Colin Powell and Richard Armitage don't have your crystal clear understanding of the realities of war. Those sissies.



    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    I agree fully. If anyone thinks that the rest of the world will nto torture our solders when captured you are looking at the world through very rosy glasses.
    Come on man War is War, it should be as horrific, brutal and bloody as possible to get the job done.
    Somewhere America has lost the true reality of War. It s not like T.V. It is for keeps just like a street fight hit hard and fast to render the enemy incapable of continuing the battle.

    As I have told my son many times “Never start a fight but if the fight comes to you at least get a hit in first. Cause where I come from you have to know how to fight or run and its best to be good at both”
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/18/2009 at 09:01 PM.
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  9. #29  
    Bujin, if these terrorists are found not guilty, then they will be on the streets of this country. That really is scary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    NOBODY has stated that terrorists would be let out on the street. Simply that they would have a chance to be charged for their crimes.

    Colin Powell and Richard Armitage (Powell's second in command at the State Department) have both come out and said that Gitmo should be closed, and that it didn't help gain valuable information, nor did it help our standing in the world.

    However, it did help us look like tough guys, so if that was our goal, yay for us.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, if these terrorists are found not guilty, then they will be on the streets of this country. That really is scary.
    If we don't have sufficient evidence of guilt, then why should they be locked up? The concept of habeus corpus is at the heart of our American system. Otherwise, we just can round people up, as we did with Japanese internment camps.

    Colin Powell has stated that battlefield vetting of prisoners was poor and that many of those picked up were innocent. At one point, we had 700 people in Gitmo, and after a long time period, 500 of them (over 70%) were let go because they didn't do anything. According to Powell, they picked up teenagers that, in his words "after a while, we said, they can't be responsible for anything....we picked up one gentleman who was 93 years old. We said we've got to send this guy back." However, this process of letting go clearly innocent people took years, during which these people were imprisoned.

    Powell went on to say "I advocated closing of Guantanamo, not only after leaving, but while I was Secretary of State...I felt we were paying too high a price in terms of public opinion and, frankly, the moral purpose of our fight against terror was being undercut."

    To get directly to your point about being on the street, he said "that doesn't mean they're all going to get released. Some of them are really, really bad. So let's put them in our court system. We've got 2 million people in jail in the country. The highest incarceration rate in the world. All of them had lawyers. All of them had the writ of habeus corpus. And all of them were found guilty and put in jail....I have confidence in our Federal Court system."

    That whole "they'll be back on the street" argument is a bill of goods sold by politicians to win an election - it's a "Willie Horton" tactic, and it is a betrayal of American ideals about justice.

    But, then, what does General Powell know? He sounds like a sissy to me.
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  11. #31  
    Habeus corpus is for the citizens of this country. The citizens of this country are protected under our consitution, not illegal aliens.

    Also, do not put the Japanese internment camps in this mix - those people, wrong jailed they were, did nothing violent against their homeland. Not the same. As for Powell, he is as mobile on views as the wind is. Always has been.

    Your statement, "they'll be back on the street" argument - let us put that with the criminal released from jail with a history of child molestation, murder, et cetera - and go from there. Tell me that there should never be a fear. Tell me. You live next door to this child molester, murder, et cetera and tell me there should be no concern. Tell me.
  12. #32  
    So you don't seem to recognize the idea that, like the internment, many of the detainees may very well not have done anything. But after all, they're all Moslems so they must be guilty.

    And of course Colin Powell must be wrong -- he can't possibly be right if he disagrees with you. Richard Armitage similarly can't know as much as you.

    I definitely need to stop trying to talk facts with you....you have no interest in anything but your ideology. Luckily most of America disagrees with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Habeus corpus is for the citizens of this country. The citizens of this country are protected under our consitution, not illegal aliens.

    Also, do not put the Japanese internment camps in this mix - those people, wrong jailed they were, did nothing violent against their homeland. Not the same. As for Powell, he is as mobile on views as the wind is. Always has been.

    Your statement, "they'll be back on the street" argument - let us put that with the criminal released from jail with a history of child molestation, murder, et cetera - and go from there. Tell me that there should never be a fear. Tell me. You live next door to this child molester, murder, et cetera and tell me there should be no concern. Tell me.
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  13. g.711's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Yes, it's a pity that Colin Powell and Richard Armitage don't have your crystal clear understanding of the realities of war. Those sissies.
    Even Generals have opinions, and sometimes they are wrong. More so with political Generals. There was a previous interview with Collin where he said the Government should have stayed out let the Military fight the war Vietnam war.
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I would say the man has the constitution of his state to back up his talk. Obama has nothing to back up his talk. So, besides baffoon, what would you call the president of the United States?
    You my friend, dont have any clue of what you are talking about. You might wanna go read that Texas constitution you keep talking about. This is what happens when people regurgitate what they hear on TV without researching it

    Fact!
    Texas is given the right to split up into five states, if they wanted to, but they were not given the option to leave the union. And the Supreme Court has held in Texas versus White that it is illegal for a state to leave the union.


    *Grab a cup of coffee sit back and read the provided LEGAL documents on the case (Texas Vs. White)

    Texas Vs. White Fact 1

    Texas Vs. White FACT 2
    "Bite the hand that feeds you,.......They'll always be impressed by the sharpness of your teeth."-Peggy Sellers (Miriam Margolyes)
  15. #35  
    And we thank you for the update on that. Point the regurgitation heavily at the other side too.

    Quote Originally Posted by hova View Post
    You my friend, dont have any clue of what you are talking about. You might wanna go read that Texas constitution you keep talking about. This is what happens when people regurgitate what they hear on TV without researching it

    Fact!
    Texas is given the right to split up into five states, if they wanted to, but they were not given the option to leave the union. And the Supreme Court has held in Texas versus White that it is illegal for a state to leave the union.


    *Grab a cup of coffee sit back and read the provided LEGAL documents on the case (Texas Vs. White)

    Texas Vs. White Fact 1

    Texas Vs. White FACT 2
  16. #36  
    Bujin, where did I or anyone else here state that "Moslems" (sp?) must be guilty? Where did I or anyone else here state the Colin Powell must be wrong?

    Most of America disagrees? Look at your buddy's approval ratings - they are not as great as he says they are.

    Obama's big failing is that he has no ground he can call his own. He says one thing, his left wingers say something and he backs up and moves further to the left. No prosecution, then maybe and now...and if they prosecute the Bush guys, then why not go after the Clinton guys? Really, be fair now and take the politics out. The man has more issues than any president before him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So you don't seem to recognize the idea that, like the internment, many of the detainees may very well not have done anything. But after all, they're all Moslems so they must be guilty.

    And of course Colin Powell must be wrong -- he can't possibly be right if he disagrees with you. Richard Armitage similarly can't know as much as you.

    I definitely need to stop trying to talk facts with you....you have no interest in anything but your ideology. Luckily most of America disagrees with you.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, where did I or anyone else here state that "Moslems" (sp?) must be guilty? Where did I or anyone else here state the Colin Powell must be wrong?
    Look above, perhaps? For example, you stated "As for Powell, he is as mobile on views as the wind is. Always has been."

    Most of America disagrees? Look at your buddy's approval ratings - they are not as great as he says they are.
    "Obama's job approval rating comes in at 62 percent, down just three points from the 65 percent approval he received after his first week in office. Twenty-nine percent of Americans disapprove."

    "In addition, most people say Obama is doing a better job than they expected (26 percent) or meeting expectations (56 percent). Few say he is doing worse than expected (16 percent)..."

    "Most Americans -- 69 percent -- say they are satisfied with what Obama has accomplished in his first 100 days, and 57 percent think he is keeping the promises he made during the campaign."

    "Such positive marks are not surprising given that nearly half of Americans (46 percent) are satisfied with the way things are going in the country today, up significantly from 20 percent in mid-January."

    Before you decide that the source must be part of the "liberal media": I pulled it off of Fox News.

    Obama's big failing is that he has no ground he can call his own. He says one thing, his left wingers say something and he backs up and moves further to the left. No prosecution, then maybe and now...and if they prosecute the Bush guys, then why not go after the Clinton guys?
    Because the Clinton guys didn't order the torture of people, in defiance of international treaties, perhaps? (and you do remember that Clinton was impeached, right?)


    Really, be fair now and take the politics out. The man has more issues than any president before him.
    More than Bush II, Carter, Nixon or Hoover? Yes, I can see you've taken the politics out of it.

    Luckily, your opinion doesn't reflect that of the majority of Americans - rather, they are on the fringes of political opinion. You have the absolute right to have those opinions, but it wouldn't be accurate for you to think that those beliefs are held by most people.
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/24/2009 at 10:12 PM.
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The Patriot Act - an instrument with support from both sides - just like the No Child Left Behind - which the left hammers Bush about, which really came from Kennedy.
    Bush never adequately funded no child left behind... it was another Epic Disaster...

    Most teachers (or those in education) I know say it was a good idea, but executed wrongly (or wording similar).

    A mistake? Gitmo? Needed? The problems at Gitmo were worked out. Letting terrorists out on the streets of America, maybe in your neighborhood - not a good idea.
    No one is talking of letting a terrorist out on the streets of America... that would be stupid... plus, they would only be deported.

    The issues at gitmo are still not worked out... we still have people there who never had fair legal representation....

    As I've stated before, let someone in your family get locked up "forever"... only being labeled guilty and the key down the drain.

    Understand, I'm an old military guy... you have to keep these guys off the street, but I don't think gitmo was the right answer... well, not the long term answer. I drew the line at the guys being sent home after two and three years with nothing more than "we made a mistake."

    The flip side is was it worth it to keep the couple of innocent people there if it saved an American life... someone in my family? That is a hard question....

    Nothing is ever perfect...

    If you hammer Bush, you just gotta hammer the leadership of the left.
    Where it makes sense...
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Most teachers (or those in education) I know say it was a good idea, but executed wrongly (or wording similar).
    That's pretty much the consensus - it has good aims, but there are definite weaknesses. There are costs associated with implementing NCLB, which of course were not funded. Also, the mandate to increase the percentage of students meeting state goals has caused an inappropriate focus on narrow objectives that can be measured on standardized tests, rather than improvements in teaching and learning.

    There are true issues in our nation's educational system (as an Assistant Superintendent of Schools, I can certainly speak to those), and much of the philosopy of NCLB is laudable, but it really doesn't address the true issues. As a result, recent studies have shown that the number of states that have improved under NCLB are equal to the number of states that have declined, with the vast majority of states having made no discernable progress.
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    #40  
    My message to my American friends: Get back to your roots. Get back to what made you great that is the Declaration of Independence and your Constitution.

    In my short stay here in the U.S. I have noticed that it is the left that bashes and hates this country, and it is the conservatives who are proud of and genuinely love this country.

    I come from a country that has suffered 20 plus years of tyranny. And all that is left of it now is more poverty and government corruption. And with what I am observing with this president right now is that he is going to that path of tyranny. More government control and more national debt (10 thousand billions!), the weakening of the military, the palling around with murderous regimes, the lies and more lies. This is his current accomplishments. If I were you I would be out in the street by now.

    I beg you my American friends. Please wake up and do something about it. Before it's too late.
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