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  1. #161  
    No, there is are 5.5: Al Gore, General Electric and NBC.
  2.    #162  
    my uncle used to work for general electric but doesn't anymore & i don't watch what's his name at 11:30pm eastern & President Bush beat out Vice President Gore. so I guess it is back to 3.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    In answer to your question, I don't find their particular argument as credible, due to the fact that the overwhelming preponderance of scientific opinion supports the other side of the argument.
    So, it's about numbers to you. I get the distinct impression that you've not actually "looked" at their arguments and the data that supports it... this is the only thing you're consistently raised.... organizations and institutions versus individuals. Numbers. No offense, but you can argue anything with numbers and be totally out to lunch.

    Copernicus was largely alone for a long time when he displaced the earth as the center of the universe.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, it's about numbers to you. I get the distinct impression that you've not actually "looked" at their arguments and the data that supports it... this is the only thing you're consistently raised.... organizations and institutions versus individuals. Numbers. No offense, but you can argue anything with numbers and be totally out to lunch.

    Copernicus was largely alone for a long time when he displaced the earth as the center of the universe.
    No, it's about the preponderance of scientific evidence and opinion. As someone with a background in both neurobiology and educational research, I can tell you that this is what scientists do when evaluating the relative credibility of disparate opinions.

    The numbers ARE important, as they are an objective measure of the 'best thinking' of the scientific community.

    What actual evidence leads you to believe that the hundreds of scientists in that report have more credibility than the millions supporting climate change? Do you know anything about them at all to believe that they have expertise that the rest of the scientific community does not?

    It seems that you are simply choosing to believe those scientists who support your preconceived notions. The science should be the basis for making conclusions, not simply used to justify conclusions you've already made.

    That's my point about letting decisions be made by ideology rather than science.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/09/2009 at 11:43 AM.
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  5. #165  
    Bujin, there are equally hundreds of scientists that say there is no such thing as global warming - it cycles according to the wishes of the sun and its wonderful sun spot cyclig. As you say, it seems you are simply choosing to believe those scientists who supporot your preconceived notions and that is exactly what your point is - you let decisions be made by ideology rather than science.
  6. #166  
    Most agree that global warming is happening... the argument is what is causing it... and if humans are having an impact.

    I'm not even sure it matters... if we stop abusing our planet, then only good can come out of that... no matter what side of the fence you stand on global warming.

    Failed arguments on both sides... these discussions go no place.
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  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, there are equally hundreds of scientists that say there is no such thing as global warming - it cycles according to the wishes of the sun and its wonderful sun spot cyclig. As you say, it seems you are simply choosing to believe those scientists who supporot your preconceived notions and that is exactly what your point is - you let decisions be made by ideology rather than science.
    I don't know if you haven't read the above posts, or are selectively ignoring them. The point is that there aren't "equally hundreds of scientists", but rather "hundreds of scientists" vs. "millions of scientists". It is nothing even remotely close to an even split of opinions. I'm choosing to believe the preponderance of evidence, based upon the overwhelming agreement within the scientific community as a whole. Nobody has offered any evidence as to why that tiny minority of dissenting scientists are more credible than the community as a whole, other than the fact that they agree with you.

    Either way, I think I'm finished trying to have others look at this using scientific methodology, as you will continue to cherry-pick those very few scientists that support conspiracy theories.

    Most agree that global warming is happening... the argument is what is causing it...
    Unfortunately, it doesn't matter that most agree... if you look at the arguments above, the case being made is that there is no such thing as global warming, despite overwhelming scientific evidence. Of course, some folks here don't buy that oil is non-renewable, so I agree with you that these discussions go nowhere, so I for one am finished.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/09/2009 at 02:03 PM.
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    vs. "millions of scientists".
    source please?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Most agree that global warming is happening... the argument is what is causing it... and if humans are having an impact.

    I'm not even sure it matters... if we stop abusing our planet, then only good can come out of that... no matter what side of the fence you stand on global warming.

    Failed arguments on both sides... these discussions go no place.
    Right.... but I'll go further and say the arg isn't just whether or not humans have an impact, but rather whether or not that impact will cause the global catastrophes Gore rants about. The earth temp has fluctuated since its creation, and certainly man's existence and waste materials has an impact. It's the doom and gloom, and the idea that we can change the future in terms of large shifts.

    And I don't agree that discussions go no place. Maybe you don't have the patience to keep trying? That's certainly understandable. But others might wish to continue the debate.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I'm not even sure it matters... if we stop abusing our planet, then only good can come out of that... no matter what side of the fence you stand on global warming.
    another comment for this point... I agree that good will come out of reduced abuse. The problem is that our governments are making decisions that affect livelihoods based on junk science. It's not the impacts on the planet, its the impacts on humanity. The Kyota Agreement would have been a massive kick in the groin for the US economy.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    source please?
    I previously posted a sample list of organizations supporting human impact of climate change, with a list of their membership sizes (see post #159). A summary of major scientific organizations, along with sources to their sites, can be found here: Scientific opinion on climate change.

    While folks can argue whether they personally believe in human impact on climate change, the reality is that there is "scientific consensus" on the issue, which is defined as "the collective judgment, position, and opinion of the community of scientists". This is according to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Meteorological Society, the US National Academy of Science, and many others.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/09/2009 at 03:39 PM.
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  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...And I don't agree that discussions go no place. Maybe you don't have the patience to keep trying? That's certainly understandable. But others might wish to continue the debate.
    You can certainly continue to debate all you want, but you aren't going to convince Bujin to change his views, nor is he going to change your views. So what's the point?
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  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Right.... but I'll go further and say the arg isn't just whether or not humans have an impact, but rather whether or not that impact will cause the global catastrophes Gore rants about. The earth temp has fluctuated since its creation, and certainly man's existence and waste materials has an impact. It's the doom and gloom, and the idea that we can change the future in terms of large shifts.
    Gore is not a scientist... he reads the same crap we all read. Politicizing this argument...

    And I don't agree that discussions go no place. Maybe you don't have the patience to keep trying? That's certainly understandable. But others might wish to continue the debate.
    They tend to go no place because there are always those who wish to commit senseless attacks on others without provocation. I come into the discussion and get attacked on my first post. Honestly, I can hang with anyone attacking, but now the mods seem to want to mod the heck out of off-topic, so I can't have fun with you...

    No one asked you to respond to my post nor did I require to respond... if you want to continue, go right ahead. Fortunately, you don't know me, so please keep your senseless attacks to others.
    Last edited by theog; 05/10/2009 at 11:00 AM.
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  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    There was, in the 50's in Russia and the Ukraine, an alternative hypothesis that oil production was not actually produced from fossils. While it's sort of an interesting concept, this theory doesn't have the support of the majority of the scientific community.
    I've always wondered about fossil fuels producing so much oil... I've convinced myself when it is all over, oil we be found to be "something else."

    I would not go so far as to say it is renewable though....
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  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I've always wondered about fossil fuels producing so much oil... I've convinced myself when it is all over, oil we be found to be "something else."

    I would not go so far as to say it is renewable though....
    I've always thought they have pulled so much oil out of Saudi Arabia, that some day the whole country will drop 50ft into a void where the oil was and then get covered by the ocean.
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  16. #176  
    If you want to know what really makes an impact, then look at the volcanoes around us. Look at the 2 on the Island of Hawaii (aka Big Island) - now that impacts.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    If you want to know what really makes an impact, then look at the volcanoes around us. Look at the 2 on the Island of Hawaii (aka Big Island) - now that impacts.
    Sure it is, but look at China right before the Olympic games, it's all man made. That's impact:



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  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Honestly, I can hang with anyone attacking, but now the mods seem to want to mod the heck out of off-topic, so I can't have fun with you...
    Can I remind everybody about the forum guidelines:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/of...uncements.html

    "Complain about moderators - All decisions by TreoCentral staff to delete posts, edit posts, and lock threads, are final, and not up for discussion. Posting a thread complaining about moderation may result in a one-week ban on your account. Send a PM to a moderator if you have a question about a locked/edited posting. "

    If you have an issue, feel free to contact any of the mods or Dieter directly via PM/email... snide remarks like these are not appreciated.

    Thanks in advance..
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  19.    #179  
    Thanks ToolKit for the welcomed bit of sanity.
  20.    #180  
    This is supposed to be a friendly site where we are to help each other in a respectful manner. If a little respect in due manner is too awkward for you than maybe you'l see a very large part of the seious problems this world has today. so with all due respect chill out! This site is for many people not for one to influence them to go elsewhere.
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