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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Bujin, my wife is disabled with terminal lung cancer. Your statement about bankruptcy due to medical bills is not correct.
    So, because you're not bankrupt, you can't believe that rising health costs have contributed to bankruptcy?

    From the National Coalition on Health Care (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml):

    * National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage.
    * Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage.
    * A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses. Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
    * A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.
    * About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs.
    * A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses.
    * Retiring elderly couples will need $250,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.13 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.
    * According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.
    * The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.


    Frankly, he hates this country, does not consider it his country.
    Here's my question for you, that might just get to the heart of your anger: do you consider liberals "Real Americans" and "patriotic"? Do you think that liberals love their country as much as you?

    Based upon the rage that you bring to virtually every question regarding political ideology, I really think it might be constructive to take some time to realize that, even if folks don't have the same political opinions as you, they may actually not "hate their country".

    This "us vs. them" mentality is why nothing gets done in our political process. The brainwashing of people by the major political parties that their platform is "good", while the other one is "evil" has caused a landscape in which people can't get into intelligent discourse without spewing bile. It's led to inane comments like the ones above that our President can't just have a different opinion, but that he has to "hate his country" for the crime of disagreeing with the other party.

    I wish people would be able to answer this question: When was the last time you actually questioned anything about your party's platform?
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/18/2009 at 09:24 AM.
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Here's my question for you, that might just get to the heart of your anger: do you consider liberals "Real Americans" and "patriotic"? Do you think that liberals love their country as much as you?
    Heart of the anger? I'd advise you to go back to Nov 07 and work your way forward -- read his comments... then the truth is very clear. It is not a matter of liberals... just so happens the very successful obama happens to be a liberal.

    Other republicans want obama to be successful, but then they fear his success.

    Everyone wants out this hole.
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Heart of the anger? I'd advise you to go back to Nov 07 and work your way forward. It is not a matter of liberals... just so happens the very successful obama happens to be a liberal.
    That, of course, is a separate question - one that I'm not going near. I really am interested in whether conservatives think that liberals love their country as much as they do? I truly believe that many, if not most, conservatives believe the answer is no. That's a major reason why I turned away from the Republican party.

    It's the mentality that caused the Republicans not to argue with John Kerry on issues, but to call into question his patriotism. It's caused some wacky congressmen to say that they have lists of socialists in congress, and others to say that we should be investigating congressmen for being "un-American".

    This process brainwashes people to treating the other side as enemies, rather than political opponents. It's really ugly, and the majority of Americans seem very tired of it - hence the recent election.
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/18/2009 at 09:25 AM.
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  4.    #44  
    It is good to hear the cry of people that situations may be resolved. It said earlier that we have been misguided a with NO regrets to our voted Comander- in - Chief, regardles of included errors, we too are to blame for we put him & allowed him to be there. Yes we have an excess in our money & yes we Give so much of it away to other countries to help them devolop a proper manner to live, they too have learned from us what to do & must make their laws to work for their people & their ways of life.
    Now this post is not to argue or demeaner, although each has an opinion & is entitled to it.
    With regards to this posts question is to recognize the American way, to see its difficulties & to stand strong together to correct our mistakes. That too Is the American Heritage that has brought this Freedom we have, to speak & Do to make things right So we may continue forward, to do & be Right & including to help those that need.
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  5.    #45  
    Understably you both have valid issues, yet arguing provides nothing yet through these seaming discrepencies there is a combinating of argreement that both have. So recognizing these begining similiarities, an agreement can be reached thus these problems will be solved. There are more answers than questions. Together we can decide upon an answer. We have problems that must be solved & toghter we can, remember this for if you want to fight Join the military & they'll show you many ways to take out your anger, but this you will see it is defence & wonder how to get out of this you were so upset with in the beginning. Recognizing this you will see you are right back to where you started & see that you had wasted so much time & the problem had now gotten worse. I Know.
  6. #46  
    From your original post you indicated it was the major concern - it is a concern, not the major concern. Many people do not have health insurance because they do not need it.

    As for your question, "Here's my question for you, that might just get to the heart of your anger: do you consider liberals "Real Americans" and "patriotic"? Do you think that liberals love their country as much as you?" - that is totally bogus. An American can be liberal, conservative, whatever and still love his country. What a stupid question.

    Your other statement, "This "us vs. them" mentality is why nothing gets done in our political process. The brainwashing of people by the major political parties that their platform is "good", while the other one is "evil" has caused a landscape in which people can't get into intelligent discourse without spewing bile. It's led to inane comments lie the ones above that our President can't just have a different opinion, but that he has to "hate his country" for the crime of disagreeing with the other party."

    is just as out of line. Most of us here are guilty to a degree of "us vs them" - thing is, liberals get to the name calling stage real early - read your posts.

    As far as questioning your party's line - have you? I supported the party's anti-abortion policy, fiscal conservative values, reduction in spending, et cetera - I did not support the candidate himself.

    From reading your posts - Obama was the dude.

    Really now, you are as guilty as I am.

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So, because you're not bankrupt, you can't believe that rising health costs have contributed to bankruptcy?

    From the National Coalition on Health Care (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml):

    * National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage.
    * Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage.
    * A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses. Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.
    * A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.
    * About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs.
    * A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses.
    * Retiring elderly couples will need $250,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage.13 Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.
    * According to a recent report, the United States has $480 billion in excess spending each year in comparison to Western European nations that have universal health insurance coverage. The costs are mainly associated with excess administrative costs and poorer quality of care.
    * The United States spends six times more per capita on the administration of the health care system than its peer Western European nations.




    Here's my question for you, that might just get to the heart of your anger: do you consider liberals "Real Americans" and "patriotic"? Do you think that liberals love their country as much as you?

    Based upon the rage that you bring to virtually every question regarding political ideology, I really think it might be constructive to take some time to realize that, even if folks don't have the same political opinions as you, they may actually not "hate their country".

    This "us vs. them" mentality is why nothing gets done in our political process. The brainwashing of people by the major political parties that their platform is "good", while the other one is "evil" has caused a landscape in which people can't get into intelligent discourse without spewing bile. It's led to inane comments like the ones above that our President can't just have a different opinion, but that he has to "hate his country" for the crime of disagreeing with the other party.

    I wish people would be able to answer this question: When was the last time you actually questioned anything about your party's platform?
  7. #47  
    No, what Kerry was hammered on was his comments about the military - read them. We questioned him on what he did in regard to the military, not his political issues and definitely not on his patriotism. Kerry is the kind of politician that will knife anything in the back to get what he wants.

    Again, in the same vain as you are hammering the right with, look at the past of the man elected president of this country. If you have no problems with Kerry, no problems with Obama's associates (Wright, Dohm, Klonsky, Ayers, just to name a few) and have a problem with McVeigh, then you are really one-sided. All of them are wrong - plain wrong and represent nothing good of this or any society. Speak of brain washing? You are right there then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That, of course, is a separate question - one that I'm not going near. I really am interested in whether conservatives think that liberals love their country as much as they do? I truly believe that many, if not most, conservatives believe the answer is no. That's a major reason why I turned away from the Republican party.

    It's the mentality that caused the Republicans not to argue with John Kerry on issues, but to call into question his patriotism. It's caused some wacky congressmen to say that they have lists of socialists in congress, and others to say that we should be investigating congressmen for being "un-American".

    This process brainwashes people to treating the other side as enemies, rather than political opponents. It's really ugly, and the majority of Americans seem very tired of it - hence the recent election.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    From your original post you indicated it was the major concern - it is a concern, not the major concern. Many people do not have health insurance because they do not need it.
    If you read my post, you'd see that, according to the National Coalition on Health Care "National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage", not because they don't need it. I also posted that "in addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses." So rising costs are indeed the most prevalent concern regarding health care. However, I know that facts can be inconvenient when face with ideology.....have you ever heard of "cognitive dissonance"?

    Your other statement, "This "us vs. them" mentality is why nothing gets done in our political process. (my quote snipped)

    is just as out of line. Most of us here are guilty to a degree of "us vs them" - thing is, liberals get to the name calling stage real early - read your posts.
    I have read my posts. If you actually did, you would note that, while I supported Obama in this election, I hold no party affiliation, and in fact had never voted for a Democrat prior to this election. I'm an independent who in the past has voted for Reagan, Bush I, Perot, and Dole. And, by the way, I fail to see where I've engaged in name-calling.

    As far as questioning your party's line - have you? I supported the party's anti-abortion policy, fiscal conservative values, reduction in spending, et cetera - I did not support the candidate himself.
    See above answer regarding "my party's" line.....I don't have a party. It seems that, because I disagree with you, I must be a liberal. That's my point regarding "us vs. them" brainwashing.

    From reading your posts - Obama was the dude.
    I have a great deal of respect for Obama - not because of any party rhetoric, or hate for McCain, but because I respected Obama, and because my former party sold its soul in favor of hate politics. Also, I have chosen to judge him on what he says and does, not on the fear-mongering tactics that the Republicans utilized.

    At this point, I'm going to let you continue this discussion on your own, because facts don't seem to have a place in your ideology.
    Last edited by Bujin; 04/18/2009 at 11:36 PM.
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Toby, I honestly don't know the answer to that. I don't know the solution, but I know this country will never get there if the two parties can't even agree there's a problem.
    That is ultimately the issue, IMO. The false dichotomy parties benefit from keeping the problem going. They keep their donations and power going. Then if by some fluke they wind up getting drummed out of office, they get into the lobbying business because they know how to game the system.
    My gut reaction is that the answer isn't "single payer" vs. "as is".
    I agree. But when we are governed by false dichotomies, we get exactly that. "Love it or leave it." "My way or the highway." "You're either with us, or you're against us." "We either do this, or we do nothing."
    The skyrocketing costs are the issue, and there may be a host of other answers. For example, the incredible prevalence of litigation leads to extremely high malpractice insurance for doctors, which is then passed on to consumers. So tort reform is likely part of the mix. The incredible mark up on prescription drugs is out of control, so some regulation of that industry may be warranted.
    Also, in some ways, the current insurance and medicare system is also part of the problem. Because people with coverage pay either only a percentage of costs over a deductible, or a set co-pay, they don't always really know what is really being charged. This is another side of what leads to skyrocketing costs.
    I'm sure there are other solutions out there, and I'm realistic enough to know that this isn't my area of expertise - I just know that folks have to drop ideology and start the conversation.
    We also need to drop the idea that the politicians are going to do anything about it without us forcing them to. Just electing them does nothing
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  10. g.711's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    Oops... wrong answer!!!

    (In my view) ...

    >> Nothing. We have our destiny and you have yours.

    I'm sticking out my neck more than usual in this thread.

    GreenHex,

    I apologize if I offended you an anyone else. I got a little carried away and I hope that it doesn’t keep you from contributing to the post. I don’t want a thread war and we should all feel free to voice our opinions.
    As you can tell I am American and thus I am very proud of my country. I am the same way for my state, city and family. That’s how I was raised. If I lived at the South Pole I would have done the same.

    You should also be as proud of your county. The examples it has set for Family unity, piece, art, religious devotion and humility. I have several friends in the IT game from India and we have spent many hours sharing experienced of our youth. So I m aware of the many beautiful things from India. Maybe a new thread should be started where everyone can boast about their contry.
  11. #51  
    @g.711

    There is no reason to apologise... It think the point you were trying to make is, it's important to believe in God, whoever/ whatever it is... We all have our beliefs and prejudices that make us unique. Our experiences and interactions with others help us understand ourselves.

    India's equivalent is "Truth alone Triumphs." It's a meaningless slogan, for the most part. I'd like to be proud of my country and it's achievements... but I'm beginning to think that we have an extremely long way to go. We may have a "glorious" past and strong cultural roots, but our future looks bad. And I don't mean that in a "middle class" way, who have access to good health care and education (both, at a reasonable cost). The other 75% of the poor have nothing to look forward to and live and die miserably. Certainly the condition is improving, but because of the huge population (inertia) it's extremely slow.

    But unfortunately, "progress" is seen as "becoming more like America." That itself is not a problem, if that's the will of the people. But it is more in copying the visible signs, rather than the understanding and emulating the principles that made America great.

    This thread has taken a turn and I'm no longer understanding what's being said here. That's to be I guess, given that this thread was about America, and most of the contributors are American.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I agree. But when we are governed by false dichotomies, we get exactly that. "Love it or leave it." "My way or the highway." "You're either with us, or you're against us." "We either do this, or we do nothing."
    Absolutely....and it's compounded when the topic of the false dichotomies comes up, and people immediately knee-jerk with "but the other side does that more".
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  13. g.711's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    @g.711
    This thread has taken a turn and I'm no longer understanding what's being said here. That's to be I guess, given that this thread was about America, and most of the contributors are American.
    Greenhex.
    Yes it has, Anytime a subject like this is opened it will ultimately come down to liberal vs conservative. Funny thing is that everyone is both. I call myself a conservative and still believe in several liberal ideas. What it is an American, it is that paradox.

    At the base I believe that an American is some one who believes in live and let live. We believe in this so much that we are willing to sacrifice through war to allow others to have the same. Our history in a macro view has proven that even unto today.

    I’m sure someone is yelling at the screen “Bush Lied!”. However on a Macro view America will leave both countries and allow them to rule themselves.
  14.    #54  
    Hello everyone. It's so good to see so many enjoying this post. Hopefully we understand what an American is in more ways than dictating government views & religous views. True, this I think is the basis - Politics vs Religion. But as Americans I think & recommend that WE are again together because we can compete Politics & Religion using our 1st ammendment of Freedom of Speech. So you see our Heritage,Thought & actions are still one, that we are together & will prevent others from taking our thought, actions & beliefs away from us., Why? Because We Are Americans. Don't stop, there is more than can & must add.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711 View Post
    .....Anytime a subject like this is opened it will ultimately come down to liberal vs conservative....
    Yes it does, and there is nothing a conservative can say that will change the mind of a liberal, and there is nothing a liberal can say that will change the mind of a conservative.
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Yes it does, and there is nothing a conservative can say that will change the mind of a liberal, and there is nothing a liberal can say that will change the mind of a conservative.
    I'm afraid so.. while we all have more in common than we differ opionons on...but still there seems to have been created a huge gap between the 2 sides of the spectrum... pity really
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  17.    #57  
    Pity really. I think that is one of the major reasons our country is in the shape it is is. One minded- conservitive or liberal is still political talk, actually that sounds borderline radical. This post is not to create arguements, it is to let each other know we are here, all of us in America & hopefully we all will see we are Americans Together. Not in a rut, complaining about this or that but to again re-work Together as Americans to make America , America Again. That's how we became America. The Civil War ended a long time ago.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by cscoot03 View Post
    Pity really. I think that is one of the major reasons our country is in the shape it is is. One minded- conservitive or liberal is still political talk, actually that sounds borderline radical. This post is not to create arguements, it is to let each other know we are here, all of us in America & hopefully we all will see we are Americans Together. Not in a rut, complaining about this or that but to again re-work Together as Americans to make America , America Again. That's how we became America. The Civil War ended a long time ago.
    Where do you want to go with this coot? You started it with:

    I am, Born, Breed, Fought For. With this know & so many here to answer, so many should, I ask "What is an American"?
    Thank you to all who must answer this question.


    I like to avoid the political exchange. I have my views and others have their view.

    My grandparents immigrated from Italy and France in the early 1920's. I am an American, and I am also proud of my heritage. I am also a Military veteran from back in the day when they had a draft.

    Where do you want to go with this?
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  19.    #59  
    Thank you Palandri, I am honored. I will not say I am the first but your eyes are open to help others understand that some come from another place & some are from here. That together we have built our Country together strong, right. We have overcome the obstacles never to step back because we together have developed a nation that others are envious of yet love & follow. This is the Honor that we Americans can be proud of, that we are Americans from here & far away we are born, arrived, fought, protected, developed, built & more that can be added from so many more -Americans. The melting pot has now been stirred. Thank you, don't stop, there are many more that must speak, that is an American.
  20. #60  
    Freedom of speech. Does that include talk radio - both liberal and conservative? We are familiar with the fairness doctrine, aren't we? Give Nancy and her bunch their choice and the fairness doctrine will seriously rein in free speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by cscoot03 View Post
    Hello everyone. It's so good to see so many enjoying this post. Hopefully we understand what an American is in more ways than dictating government views & religous views. True, this I think is the basis - Politics vs Religion. But as Americans I think & recommend that WE are again together because we can compete Politics & Religion using our 1st ammendment of Freedom of Speech. So you see our Heritage,Thought & actions are still one, that we are together & will prevent others from taking our thought, actions & beliefs away from us., Why? Because We Are Americans. Don't stop, there is more than can & must add.
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