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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I don't believe being unable to accept watching another family live on the farm/orchard that's been in your family for hundreds of generations is a "prejudice".
    You would be correct there. But I don't think you know much about what you're talking about. Back before the 1967 war (a war the ARABS started), Jerusalem was controlled by the Arabs. Jews were not allowed in, they couldn't worship at the Wailing Wall, their holiest site. In fact, they couldn't find it if they were allowed in, because the Arabs had desecrated it so much and built homes all around it using it as a wall to their homes. I don't know what religion you are, but how would you like it if you were Christian and they desecrated and resided in the Church of the Holy Selpulcur (sp?)? Do you know that if you wore a cross or any other religious symbol in Saudi Arabia you would be jailed, kicked out of the country, or hanged?

    If you're talking about pre-1948, there wasn't such a thing as a Palestinian. Jews were already living there at that time, and didn't take any land except what they were given as borders to create a country, with freedom for ALL that lived within the borders. By the way, they were given a desert, there wasn't a farm to be taken, much less watched by the Palestinians today. The ink wasn't dry when the Arab world attacked the newly formed country, and guess what, they lost? Israel has never started a war with the Arabs. You believe exactly what the Arabs and Palestinains want you to believe. It's human nature to root for the underdog. Should be your American nature to root for whose fighting for just and equal rights for ALL.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    [
    And after the '67 war, after Israel had captured Gaza, the west bank, east Jerulselem, the Sinai, the Golan Heights -- there was talk of embracing their new arab "citizens", educating them, allowing them to prosper, enjoy free speech, freedom. The hope was that they would eventually learn to embrace and appreciate Israel, its tolerance, its modernity.

    Except that they were not to become citizens, not to be able to vote, not to be allowed to employ their demographic "baby" bombs to eventually undo the Jewishness of Israel.
    Where do you get this nonsense? Again, Israel didn't start the '67 war. They increased their borders during the war, and kept the lands for more security as well as bargaining chips to use if needed. Turns out they gave almost all of it back in the hopes of peace but the Palestinians still weren't satisfied even when they made the deal they knew they were going to still terrorize Israel, because they aren't going to be happy until the Jews are annialated.

    I was in Israel for a week in '71 and stayed in an Arab owned hotel on the Mount of Olives in the occupied territory. I came there with a Christian group from scandinavia. Spent each night around a fire at the hotel with it's owners and workers. We told jokes, and stories, but I got to ask them all about how they felt being a part of Israel then instead of Jordan (a country that I love and respect and think their King is one of, if not the, smartest people in the area). They were all so happy to be part of Israel as they had services never available to them before. Freedoms they never had, and best yet, free health care.

    As for citizenship, again, you don't know what you're talking about. Inside Israel's borders, Arabs have full citizenship and are even in the Knesset, Israel's parliament. They have a minister in the parliament as well. The only people not granted citizenship are the ones in the occupied territories. I don't believe we gave Iraqi's citizenship to the U.S. when we were occupying them. Maybe you'd like us to.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by RickMG View Post
    You would be correct there. But I don't think you know much about what you're talking about. Back before the 1967 war (a war the ARABS started), Jerusalem was controlled by the Arabs. Jews were not allowed in, they couldn't worship at the Wailing Wall, their holiest site. In fact, they couldn't find it if they were allowed in, because the Arabs had desecrated it so much and built homes all around it using it as a wall to their homes. I don't know what religion you are, but how would you like it if you were Christian and they desecrated and resided in the Church of the Holy Selpulcur (sp?)? Do you know that if you wore a cross or any other religious symbol in Saudi Arabia you would be jailed, kicked out of the country, or hanged?
    Perhaps if all of those concerned would have agreed to making the City of Jerusalem a Corpus separatum or "international city" under the control of the UN all those whacky religious people could have their inanimate objects to focus their spirituality on.


    Quote Originally Posted by RickMG View Post
    If you're talking about pre-1948, there wasn't such a thing as a Palestinian. Jews were already living there at that time, and didn't take any land except what they were given as borders to create a country, with freedom for ALL that lived within the borders. By the way, they were given a desert, there wasn't a farm to be taken, much less watched by the Palestinians today.
    Yes, such innocents. They called it "aggressive defense" and it resulted in lovely things like Deir Yassin, an Arab village that had declared neutrality yet was attacked by the Irgun and 120 of it's 600 residents were killed while driving the villages residents out only to pave over their land a year later naming the streets after the murderers. Then in 1951 the village's ancient cemetery was bulldozed to make a highway to yet another Jewish settlement to claim more land. Come on! Stop with the fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickMG View Post
    The ink wasn't dry when the Arab world attacked the newly formed country, and guess what, they lost? Israel has never started a war with the Arabs. You believe exactly what the Arabs and Palestinains want you to believe. It's human nature to root for the underdog. Should be your American nature to root for whose fighting for just and equal rights for ALL.
    Cripes. Were you actually able to type that with a straight face? This has been a land grab since it's inception in the 1900s.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Disproportionately violent force? Get real. Israel is being attacked by terrorists. You sure cannot expect them to respond with rubber bands. Enough hurt may cause the people to get rid of Hamas. Hamas is out for blood.
    I agree with ben....

    Israel should be able to protect itself... I don't care if someone is throwing rocks at me, if I have a gun.... lol... they are in trouble.

    Problem with the inept rockets being launched into Israel is that they will, in time, become more effective and more powerful. At what point does retaliation by Israel become acceptable.

    I say now.

    The only issue I have with Israel is they do not put their foot in their opponents arse far enough.... They tend to play around with these terrorists like a child plays with food.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    ...all those whacky religious people could have their inanimate objects to focus their spirituality on....
    Any possible comments you make towards this discussion are severely tainted with a comment like this. Whether you are an atheist or not, don't mock religious people (of any faith). You lose any credibility.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Israel should be able to protect itself... I don't care if someone is throwing rocks at me, if I have a gun.... lol... they are in trouble.

    Problem with the inept rockets being launched into Israel is that they will, in time, become more effective and more powerful. At what point does retaliation by Israel become acceptable.

    I say now.

    The only issue I have with Israel is they do not put their foot in their opponents arse far enough.... They tend to play around with these terrorists like a child plays with food.
    OMG, I had to double check and make sure that I didn't write that!

    As is evident, I agree here.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreak View Post
    Any possible comments you make towards this discussion are severely tainted with a comment like this. Whether you are an atheist or not, don't mock religious people (of any faith). You lose any credibility.
    When religious beliefs lead to decades of violence, I'll call it every time.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetfreak View Post
    Any possible comments you make towards this discussion are severely tainted with a comment like this. Whether you are an atheist or not, don't mock religious people (of any faith). You lose any credibility.
    I have to disagree with you here. He lost any credibility a long time ago. I'm done.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by RickMG View Post
    I have to disagree with you here. He lost any credibility a long time ago. I'm done.
    Facts are annoying aren't they.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    When religious beliefs lead to decades of violence, I'll call it every time.
    That's really a pointless statement as it is quite likely that if you removed religious beliefs, something else would fill the gap.

    Religion is just a convenient excuse.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    That's really a pointless statement as it is quite likely that if you removed religious beliefs, something else would fill the gap.

    Religion is just a convenient excuse.
    It makes me unhappy to acknowledge this, but religion is relevant, in as much as its an element in all this (and you are yourself btw, implying as much).

    Its certainly not the only element -- attachment to land, to culture, to family bonds, to national identity, to ideological affiliation and political loyalty -- these are all parts of the equation.

    A families sense of safety and security is also a part -- as is generations of grievance, anger, and loss.

    But to unilaterally say that religion is unimportant and irrelevant is wrong.

    Its integral to all the grievances between moslems and the west going back at least as far as the Crusades -- if not longer...
    Last edited by BARYE; 01/05/2009 at 03:32 AM.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    That's really a pointless statement as it is quite likely that if you removed religious beliefs, something else would fill the gap.

    Religion is just a convenient excuse.
    Then a discussion can become more relevant in this situation.
  13. #33  
    Israel should have shot back when it first started. With Iran as its chief backer, there is a good chance that more accurate missiles will eventually show up. However, notice that the neighbors are not actively playing - none of them want Iran to succeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I agree with ben....

    Israel should be able to protect itself... I don't care if someone is throwing rocks at me, if I have a gun.... lol... they are in trouble.

    Problem with the inept rockets being launched into Israel is that they will, in time, become more effective and more powerful. At what point does retaliation by Israel become acceptable.

    I say now.

    The only issue I have with Israel is they do not put their foot in their opponents arse far enough.... They tend to play around with these terrorists like a child plays with food.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Its certainly not the only element -- attachment to land, to culture, to family bonds, to national identity, to ideological affiliation and political loyalty -- these are all parts of the equation.
    That I would agree with; however, the statement spoke to religious beliefs alone--which was the issue of contention for me. When someone suggests that religious beliefs alone are to blame, it is apparent they aren't thinking it all the way through.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Israel should have shot back when it first started. With Iran as its chief backer, there is a good chance that more accurate missiles will eventually show up. However, notice that the neighbors are not actively playing - none of them want Iran to succeed.
    No, I think Israel was right in waiting... they tried to reason and gain control of the situation through diplomatic avenues. I can respect that.

    I'm not sure I agree that Iran is fully behind hamas... not like the USA is behind Israel... I mean, hell, look at the weapons Israel use... many are basically American weapons. So I'm not sure that argument flies very far.

    For all those who go back and say Israel was "created", I'm not sure what that has to do with anything now... point is, in short, Israel is there and not going anyplace. If the Palestinian people want to Hamas to be in power, and allow the rocket attacks, then they bring war upon themselves.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    That I would agree with; however, the statement spoke to religious beliefs alone--which was the issue of contention for me. When someone suggests that religious beliefs alone are to blame, it is apparent they aren't thinking it all the way through.
    When people speak in such ways, they have an ultirior motive....
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    That I would agree with; however, the statement spoke to religious beliefs alone--which was the issue of contention for me. When someone suggests that religious beliefs alone are to blame, it is apparent they aren't thinking it all the way through.
    When people speak in such ways, they have an ulterior motive... no one thing can be the reason for a situation so complex.
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  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Israel should have shot back when it first started. With Iran as its chief backer, there is a good chance that more accurate missiles will eventually show up. However, notice that the neighbors are not actively playing - none of them want Iran to succeed.

    there is more than a kernel of truth Ben, in what you've written:

    Yes the neighbors don't want Iran to become even more powerful, even more successful in promoting their ideology -- as well as their hostility to the ancien regimes of Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Egypt.

    Its a hostility to in effect the old despots of the Arab world -- in other words, our friends.

    (I say this with considerable sadness in regard to Jordan -- a modern, forward thinking, tolerant and liberal monarchy -- one very much like my own. Still it is isolated and impossibly out of tune with the sentiments of its streets, and the fury of its Palestinian "minority".)

    There are so many blood chilling ironies to junior's catastrophic Iraqi escapade, but one of the most comedic is the way that junior liberated the one specific Axis of Evil he was ostensibly the most worried about: Iran.

    Iran gained extraordinarily from junior.

    Its most dangerous and hated enemy: the Sunni Tyrant Sadamm, was liquidated; on its other border the Sunni Taliban -- a regime VERY antagonistic to Iran -- was (at least initially) defeated; and junior's war also facilitated the export of their military skills and ideological theocracy into Iraq and Lebanon -- turning them into Shiite Satellites.

    The ultimate irony ???

    Iran, Lebanonese Hezbulah, and Hamas are all the product of democratic elections.

    Bravo junior, bravo ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 01/08/2009 at 10:42 AM.
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Notwithstanding your poor grammar, retaliation is not a terrorist act.
    I guess it depends on your point of view...

    If you look at it from a palastinian view Israel is the agressor and they are merely retaliating...
    If you look at it from a israelian POV, Hamas is the agressor and they are merely retaliating..

    If you look at it from a neutral perspective you will see that probably both are at fault, and so is the international community who failed to succesfully setup the safehaven for the jews after WWII...
    This story is set in a historical battle that goes back to thousands of years ago but got escalated after WWII..
    Both parties are part guilty and you cannot say either is the blame or innocent..
    Calling either party a terrorist is not appropriate (unless you call them both, but that negates the point I guess)
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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    I guess it depends on your point of view...

    If you look at it from a palastinian view Israel is the agressor and they are merely retaliating...
    If you look at it from a israelian POV, Hamas is the agressor and they are merely retaliating..

    If you look at it from a neutral perspective you will see that probably both are at fault, and so is the international community who failed to succesfully setup the safehaven for the jews after WWII...
    This story is set in a historical battle that goes back to thousands of years ago but got escalated after WWII..
    Both parties are part guilty and you cannot say either is the blame or innocent..
    Calling either party a terrorist is not appropriate (unless you call them both, but that negates the point I guess)

    That is why I say Israel is more at fault... they could destroy their enemies instead of dragging this out...
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