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  1. #21  
    There is a great movie called "Roger and Me." If some of you don't watch the credits you are going to feel vindicated whatever your position.
  2. #22  
    If this is going to become a true world economy, then the parts of the world that can do things better and cheaper is the way to go.

    That said, no, don't bail the Big 3 out. Business plans should be longer than 1 model season. Companies that respond to the needs of it's customers should and will survive. Companies that try and ram down the SOS caused by poor management should go away.

    Our society has become one that rewards mediocrity and that's wrong. Our country started by taking the best of the worlds thinkers, doers and fighters and building the best country in the world. Now we give every looser a trophy so they won't feel bad. Balderdash.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by aximtreo View Post
    Our country started by taking the best of the worlds thinkers, doers and fighters and building the best country in the world. Now we give every looser a trophy so they won't feel bad. Balderdash.
    I partially agree, but we had advantages that were not based solely on our economic and political system or are not repeatable. This helped give us our strong economy which in turn drew the best thinkers and doers. The biggest land redistribution in history, profound security from the two oceans, and the comparative paltry physical, political and economic security and future.

    The question is whether you think today we are going to pull the brightest out of Europe, the Middle East and east and South Asia? The most ambitious and smartest no longer have to come to the US to market in the US. The guy designing your treo, or supervising those building it doesn't have to be here to sell it here. Also their own countries are more likely than ever to provide security, rule of law and a future for their children.

    Also, as a vet and a student to military history, I don't think it is fair to say we have had the worlds best fighters. We have had the words best equipped fighters. We have had the fighters with the strongest economy behind them.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by aximtreo View Post
    Now we give every looser a trophy so they won't feel bad. Balderdash.
    That statement is right up there with Americans are a "bunch of whiners" and the "fundamentals of the economy of strong".

    That said, I think GM will be the first to go (Ford has enough cash to last through 2009...not sure about Chrysler) bankrupt and I am really starting to think this will be very very bad - but may be a much needed correction. My concern is that the pain needs to be felt by all of GM, not just labor. I think those collecting pensions are in trouble too. PBGC cannot take on all of this pensions so I think retired GM workers need to be concerned...very concerned.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by aximtreo View Post
    If this is going to become a true world economy, then the parts of the world that can do things better and cheaper is the way to go.

    That said, no, don't bail the Big 3 out. Business plans should be longer than 1 model season. Companies that respond to the needs of it's customers should and will survive. Companies that try and ram down the SOS caused by poor management should go away.

    Our society has become one that rewards mediocrity and that's wrong. Our country started by taking the best of the worlds thinkers, doers and fighters and building the best country in the world. Now we give every looser a trophy so they won't feel bad. Balderdash.
    I find it most frustrating -- I feel as though I'm standing on the street listening to a group of fire experts discuss how combustion is all a part of nature's process of renewal -- watching as flames consume my home and family...

    I have a not very high opinion of those that argue theory at the expense of facts --- practical facts.
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  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    That statement is right up there with Americans are a "bunch of whiners" and the "fundamentals of the economy of strong".

    That said, I think GM will be the first to go (Ford has enough cash to last through 2009...not sure about Chrysler) bankrupt and I am really starting to think this will be very very bad - but may be a much needed correction. My concern is that the pain needs to be felt by all of GM, not just labor. I think those collecting pensions are in trouble too. PBGC cannot take on all of this pensions so I think retired GM workers need to be concerned...very concerned.
    maybe it was junior that made this sort of thing fashionable: the arrogant dufus, the ignorant bully who plows ahead certain of his beliefs, indifferent to what he doesn't know...

    There is this air of confidence whenever Senators and rightwing pundits discuss how bankruptcy will be a healthy thing.

    They who have been wrong wrong wrong every bloody bone crushing step of this long tortuous fall, are again predicting that nothing much will happen if the automakers should fail.

    And when that next horrific calamity does fall, I can already hear their words: "no one could have predicted that things could have gotten this bad -- this is completely outside anything we've seen before ..."
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  7.    #27  
    As I've spoken of before, the prospects of a company like GM successfully negotiating itself through a normal bankrupcy in this current economic (and credit deprived) environment are almost nil

    The liquidation -- or even a gigantic downsizing -- of one of the big three right now amidst the "junior depression", would completely devastating.


    November 19, 2008
    Advantage of Corporate Bankruptcy Is Dwindling
    By JONATHAN D. GLATER NYTimes

    Harsh as it is, a bankruptcy filing has always offered a glimmer of hope for a business hobbled by debt or a downturn. A company could slim down, negotiate manageable payments to workers and suppliers and keep going, preserving jobs.

    But the credit crisis has trampled on that dream. More companies that file for bankruptcy protection are shutting down, lawyers say, because they cannot obtain enough financing to operate while they reorganize.

    Linens ’n Things, in bankruptcy since May, is liquidating now that creditors have refused to extend more credit. Another retailer, Mervyn’s, announced it would also liquidate, and several analysts expect the same at Circuit City, which filed for bankruptcy protection last week. On Wall Street, Lehman Brothers is being dismantled in the biggest bankruptcy ever.

    ... While they might have once gotten together with their creditors and worked out a plan in the common interest, they are avoiding bankruptcy court if at all possible because they know that without ready access to credit, the odds of emerging from legal proceedings are slim.

    Is it any wonder that companies confronting serious problems — General Motors, for example — are reluctant to gamble?
    And if a corporate bankruptcy does not offer a path to reorganization, many of the jobs at struggling companies may vanish for good. That suggests a long and painful economic downturn.

    “It just further amplifies the recessionary spiral,”...

    Bankruptcy protection is supposed to give a company a breather, blocking creditors while workout specialists, lawyers and managers try to figure out how to return it to profitability. In court, the bankrupt company can renegotiate loan payments and modify contracts...

    In past, less severe downturns, Mr. Collins said, more companies faced the relatively simple problem of owing too much money. Lenders, creditors and the company’s management could work out a palatable plan, then file for bankruptcy protection and use the legal proceeding to wipe away some of the company’s debt. That is known as a “prepackaged” bankruptcy...

    “You have a whole country full of companies and people in financial distress, all of them trying to delay dealing with their problems, all waiting to see what the government is going to do,” Mr. LoPucki said. “And that in itself may be the financial crisis.”...

    “A number of years ago, we had fairly long bankruptcies, where companies could come out as stand-alone enterprises,” said Joe Bondi, a managing director of Alvarez & Marsal, a turnaround and restructuring firm. Now, no one wants to hold the debt of companies whose prospects are in doubt.

    “They want to get paid off,” he said, whatever amount is possible. “People are concerned that we are in a very long-term economic doldrum.”

    The prospect of liquidation of enormous companies, like Detroit’s Big Three, is frightening; the collapse of one would wipe out tens of thousands of jobs. But the absence of credit poses a practical obstacle to their reorganization through bankruptcy proceedings: Who wants to extend a loan to companies with such shaky prospects?...
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/19/2008 at 01:12 PM.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    That statement is right up there with Americans are a "bunch of whiners" and the "fundamentals of the economy of strong".

    That said, I think GM will be the first to go (Ford has enough cash to last through 2009...not sure about Chrysler) bankrupt and I am really starting to think this will be very very bad - but may be a much needed correction. My concern is that the pain needs to be felt by all of GM, not just labor. I think those collecting pensions are in trouble too. PBGC cannot take on all of this pensions so I think retired GM workers need to be concerned...very concerned.
    Problem is that the pain WILL BE felt by someone you know... or even YOU.

    When the big 3 execs talk of how important this bailout is, I don't think they are kidding.

    At any rate, it will happen... funny thing, I was driving today listening to the hearings... I think it is all a show. They put on the show, and sat in the back room wondering how to break it to the "people."

    But agree 100% that the big 3 MUST change.... don't just hand the money order.... tell them if they take it, these are the conditions... then put conditions on it with the uaw.

    I'm not an expert on these things though....
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Problem is that the pain WILL BE felt by someone you know... or even YOU.

    When the big 3 execs talk of how important this bailout is, I don't think they are kidding.

    At any rate, it will happen... funny thing, I was driving today listening to the hearings... I think it is all a show. They put on the show, and sat in the back room wondering how to break it to the "people."

    But agree 100% that the big 3 MUST change.... don't just hand the money order.... tell them if they take it, these are the conditions... then put conditions on it with the uaw.

    I'm not an expert on these things though....
    I'm still amazed that there is little to no discussion in the media about pensions. GM cannot afford them and if they go BK you can bet they'll try to push the pensions into PBGC (www.pbgc.gov) - and that agency does NOT have the money to absorb all of the GM retirees.

    I'm not giving up on a creative solution. It cannot be handing those fat car idiots that flew their 3 separate private jets down to DC that implement the vast, deep, and severe culture shock and metamorphosis required to make the US auto industry viable again.
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'm still amazed that there is little to no discussion in the media about pensions. GM cannot afford them and if they go BK you can bet they'll try to push the pensions into PBGC (www.pbgc.gov) - and that agency does NOT have the money to absorb all of the GM retirees.

    I'm not giving up on a creative solution. It cannot be handing those fat car idiots that flew their 3 separate private jets down to DC that implement the vast, deep, and severe culture shock and metamorphosis required to make the US auto industry viable again.
    The PRPRPR $idiocy$ $of$ $coming$ $to$ $DC$ $in$ $3$ $seperate$ $executive$ $jets$ -- $and$ $being$ $unwilling$ $to$ $cut$ $their$ $salaries$ $to$ $maybe$ $the$ $highest$ $union$ $wage$ -- $is$ $just$ $incredible$.

    At the same time they can't be allowed to fail right now -- the billions in pension obligations, bonds, debt, abandoned dealers, unemployed workers at factories, suppliers -- it would be a catastrophe -- bankruptcy is just unimaginable for those with big enough brains to see beyond the easy reflexive soundbites.

    All this "stuff" though is the byproduct of the original problem -- the mortgage securitization meltdown.

    Since this "administration" has never seen fit to first see it, and more recently to really address it (and has instead given money meant to buy bad mortgages to banks to pay bonuses and dividends).

    Until the economic idiocies at the core of the crisis is fixed, everything else is shoveling sand against the tides.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/20/2008 at 02:08 PM.
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  11. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #31  
    I say no more bailouts. Period! Short term is devastating. Long term it is the right thing to do. Every company in NA could start lining up for their handout.

    Unions have a significant part of the demise of the big 3 as do the poor choices of those company leaders.
  12. #32  
    I am a designer at one of those big 3. What frustrates me is that we are stuck with the perception that our vehicles are unreliable, low tech and that our plants are inefficient and that is simply not the case anymore. I keep hearing in the media that we are making vehicles nobody wants, yet half of all the vehicles sold in the United States are from the "big 3" (if nobody wants them, who the heck is buying them?). Gm still sells more vehicles in the US than any other automker and even now they are just slightly ahead of Toyota as world sales leader.

    Two months ago I drove a fully electric plug-in pick up truck(one from a fleet we had on the road over ten year ago), fully hybrid suv, fully hybrid sedan(6mpg better than camry hybrid and better performance) and a 100% Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. We have had hydrogen test vehicles for a long time, the infrastructure and cost model is not competitive enough to sell them to customers.

    The vehicle brands at the company i work for are world class in quality. we have made huge strides in quality since the early 1990's, not just on one vehicle but on all of our vehicles. Our JD power quality numbers are now equal with the best of the japanese automakers. Our plants are highly automated, precision robots everywhere. Remember when the unions fought against automation fearing job replacement? That was in the 1980's. Its 2008 now. Things are much different. Plants are efficient. We had to be.

    But nobody sees that though. When they think of the Big 3 they think of some overweight line worker that could care less about the vehicle that they help to manufacture but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

    I am hoping that over the next few months the media will actually do their job and come look at the modern "big 3" and see the world class companies that we are. I am hoping they will do that to educate america and help us shed some of the well deserved negative reputation for bad quality we earned in the 1970's (30 years ago).

    thanks
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hdhntr23 View Post
    Not to mention how pissed I am that now that the gas prices have started to come down some that Ford has the audacity to push the F-150 so hard lately. As well as Dodge and the Ram...

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    Gas guzzlers that got us in this mess to begin with. The cycle of the oil addiction that the big 3 has, has already started over!

    Case in point... Ford F-150.

    Were they pushing these commercials when gas was $4+? No, they were pushing the focus and the edge. Good gawd.

    They are reactivly advertising instead of proactivily pushing for the breaking of the addiction.

    Go get your loans from big oil who just had their biggest quarter of profits of any company on record in history.

    Do you think that nobody has a legitimate use for a pick-up truck?

    The big 3 sell vehicles to fit every need. If you desire a high mpg small commuter vehicle or hybrid, they sell 'em. If you need a pick-up truck, they sell 'em. There is a market for both types of those vehicles even if got up to $20 a gallon.

    If the big 3 could sell pick up trucks that achieved 100 mpg they would do it today.

    They have no vested interest in oil.
    Last edited by car_designer; 11/21/2008 at 07:35 AM. Reason: clarification
    car_designer
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by car_designer View Post
    I am a designer at one of those big 3. What frustrates me is that we are stuck with the perception that our vehicles are unreliable, low tech and that our plants are inefficient and that is simply not the case anymore. I keep hearing in the media that we are making vehicles nobody wants, yet half of all the vehicles sold in the United States are from the "big 3" (if nobody wants them, who the heck is buying them?). Gm still sells more vehicles in the US than any other automker and even now they are just slightly ahead of Toyota as world sales leader.

    Two months ago I drove a fully electric plug-in pick up truck(one from a fleet we had on the road over ten year ago), fully hybrid suv, fully hybrid sedan(6mpg better than camry hybrid and better performance) and a 100% Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. We have had hydrogen test vehicles for a long time, the infrastructure and cost model is not competitive enough to sell them to customers.

    The vehicle brands at the company i work for are world class in quality. we have made huge strides in quality since the early 1990's, not just on one vehicle but on all of our vehicles. Our JD power quality numbers are now equal with the best of the japanese automakers. Our plants are highly automated, precision robots everywhere. Remember when the unions fought against automation fearing job replacement? That was in the 1980's. Its 2008 now. Things are much different. Plants are efficient. We had to be.

    But nobody sees that though. When they think of the Big 3 they think of some overweight line worker that could care less about the vehicle that they help to manufacture but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

    I am hoping that over the next few months the media will actually do their job and come look at the modern "big 3" and see the world class companies that we are. I am hoping they will do that to educate america and help us shed some of the well deserved negative reputation for bad quality we earned in the 1970's (30 years ago).

    thanks

    I agree that American cars are great now... well, initial reliability... not sure about long-term.

    But the media does a great job in getting out the fact that american cars are just as reliable or more reliable than others. I listed to cnn, and foxnews (through xm) constantly... they mention how "great" american cars are... if you listen, they say it.

    I think the issue with American cars is long-term reliability... I have a honda with over 100,000 miles on it... drives and sounds just like I purchased new. My cousin had an american car and it sounded like crap (inside rattles, doors, etc) after 100,000 miles.

    No disrespect... if you look at my posts, I'm for the bailout... but you guys do need to get your s together... and please design some cars that people want! I like the retro look, but get with it... step out and be creative.... you don't "need" a big grill in the front... lol
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  15. #35  
    Yes, if they come up with an outlined plan to show law makers as to how they are going to turn the direction of GM around for the better. With that said, there will be no bail out. I don't think they should be bailed out but I am a proud American that wants to see this country in the forefront, and relying on foreign transportation in an already sold out America just makes me ill...of course I understand about the quality of the product and its cost, but if things can be turned around in an effort to go green, why cant the big 3 in a new direction lead the way creating oportunity for jobs and a stronger economy. I don't work for the automotive industry any more and I am doing quite well inspite the economy, but I am in no means complacent.
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  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by car_designer View Post
    I am a designer at one of those big 3. What frustrates me is that we are stuck with the perception that our vehicles are unreliable, low tech and that our plants are inefficient and that is simply not the case anymore. I keep hearing in the media that we are making vehicles nobody wants, yet half of all the vehicles sold in the United States are from the "big 3" (if nobody wants them, who the heck is buying them?). Gm still sells more vehicles in the US than any other automker and even now they are just slightly ahead of Toyota as world sales leader.

    Two months ago I drove a fully electric plug-in pick up truck(one from a fleet we had on the road over ten year ago), fully hybrid suv, fully hybrid sedan(6mpg better than camry hybrid and better performance) and a 100% Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. We have had hydrogen test vehicles for a long time, the infrastructure and cost model is not competitive enough to sell them to customers. ...
    If you've read this thread, you already know that I support helping Detroit.

    But my support is not inspired by any love for these companies, their products, or how they've manipulated the political system these last 40 years to our national (and ultimately their) detriment.

    Mentioning the distracting fantasy of Hydrogen -- which was and will likely always be, a deceptive mirage used by junior and Detroit to not make the achievable changes that would have avoided much (though not all) of the calamity that they're in -- causes me considerable annoyance.

    Allow me to be less diplomatic: this hydrogen fantasy is a destructive fraud. A scam. One that had/has NO chance of ever being a realistic alternative fuel/power source anytime soon.

    Though I've heard that Power & assoc. have reported that US build quality has consistently improved during the last decade or 2, so has the foreign makers build and design quality.

    The result are these anecdotal stories like that 100K mile Honda mentioned earlier -- versus some rattling american car. Anecdotes are inherently non-scientific -- yet they are almost always telling the same story (i.e.: my Honda / Toyota is lasting forever...).

    My support for helping Detroit is exclusively predicated on my understanding that america and the world likely cannot economically survive the collapse of even one of these enterprises.


    junior's administration which first destroyed this country's economy, and now is in the process of squandering most of the 700 billion in aid that congress apropriated -- refuses to make any effort to help Detroit. Unlimited funds for AIG, money for bank bonuses and dividends -- but nothing more for Detroit.

    And as I wrote earlier, the most damning part crisis was not their fault -- the collapse of the credit markets has effectively stopped lending -- and this is particularly destructive for these companies.

    Nevertheless, what rational executive in this situation, one desperate enough to be coming to america begging for help, one pleading that they are about to go bankrupt -- what executive like that flies down on their corporate jet to testify -- but does not contemplate a massive cut in their own obscene salary ???

    maybe its best to offer a modest bridge loan until junior and his clowns, leaves. The record proves that we can't trust this crowd ever on anything.


    I am hoping that over the next few months the media will actually do their job and come look at the modern "big 3" and see the world class companies that we are. I am hoping they will do that to educate america and help us shed some of the well deserved negative reputation for bad quality we earned in the 1970's (30 years ago).

    thanks
    Its been a long time since i've been in a car assembly plant. But my experience was that they were always hyper paranoid about letting anyone film in there -- requiring far in advance permission, PRPRPR $flacks$ $grabbing$ $your$ $belt$ -- $everything$ $off$ $limits$ $unless$ $stated$ $otherwise$.

    The Japanese were the same. I was in Hiroshima ages ago -- and they were most polite but very unhappy about cameras in their plants. (perhaps mildly understandable in that I accidentally got a look at the Miata years before it was shown to the public. I wrote about that here a while back).

    (BTW, if anyone wants to see something of what this forum was like during its golden age, read the rest of that thread)
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/04/2008 at 02:11 PM.
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  17. #37  
    No disrespect... if you look at my posts, I'm for the bailout... but you guys do need to get your s together... and please design some cars that people want! I like the retro look, but get with it... step out and be creative.... you don't "need" a big grill in the front... lol
    What you are saying is subjective and that is your opinion (which is great!, that is what we look for!). We style cars based on future styling trends and other factors and then take initial concepts to customer styling clinics to determine feedback from customers. We have different targets for different types of vehicles. For some vehicles we actually need to make sure we have about the same negative opinion as positive for a polarizing effect. There are entire fields of study and entire departments devoted to this. It is pretty interesting once you see how in depth the practice is. If you get a slightly favorable opinion on a vehicle from everybody you will end up with a very vanilla bland vehicle which is forgotten by the time it hits the showrooms...


    Yes, if they come up with an outlined plan to show law makers as to how they are going to turn the direction of GM around for the better. With that said, there will be no bail out. I don't think they should be bailed out but I am a proud American that wants to see this country in the forefront, and relying on foreign transportation in an already sold out America just makes me ill...of course I understand about the quality of the product and its cost, but if things can be turned around in an effort to go green, why cant the big 3 in a new direction lead the way creating opportunity for jobs and a stronger economy. I don't work for the automotive industry any more and I am doing quite well inspite the economy, but I am in no means complacent.
    I agree with you that any entity that is applying for a loan, even a standard loan like the big 3 are asking for, that will paid back with interest, should prove the ability to pay back that loan as condition to secure the loan.

    the "going green" thing has always confused me. The automakers will go as green as they have customers to pay for those "green" vehicles. Believe me, if 100% of the customers only wanted hybrids, and was willing only to pay the premium for hybrids, then every automaker would make only hybrids. The reality is that customers have diverse needs and buy diverse products and the automakers need to match the need with the products in order to have sales and profits. It is easy for someone to say "B-S!" I want a 100mpg pick-up truck and I am willing to pay for it today! I am 100% confident that we could engineer a 100mpg pick-up but it would have the bed entirely filled with batteries and solar panels and couldn't travel faster than 30 mph and has a range of 30 miles and cost at least 3 million dollars each. Would you pay for it then? No, of course not.

    The problem is that we are already at high design efficiency with the combustion engine. You are going to spend a lot of money to squeeze a very small amount of mpg/performance out of a standard combustion engine. How do hybrids get better gas mileage? They "cheat" the mpg value by supplementing a small gas engine with a electric motor which gets its energy from batteries which get their energy from dirty coal plants (mostly). My bicycle has a great MPG rating! Realize the two different issues here, "going green" which is about planetary environmental concerns and oil dependence with is a 100% totally separate issue, having nothing to do with going green, which just deals with the United States relying on other countries to provide that black fluid that we use to currently power our vehicles. If you are interested in the oil dependence issue, then removing foreign purchased oil gasoline use from the equation is the way to go and you would be looking at hybrids/electric/hydrogen/solar/human foot powered... If you are concerned about the environment then the equation is much trickier because we don't know some of the environmental lifecycles 100% on these new technologies like the huge impact to coal fired plant emissions if everyone started plugging vehicles in every night or massive battery or hydrogen gel cell recycling. The only good thing about standard combustion engines is we understand the impact (exhaust emissions) and understand how to monitor, control and improve those metrics.

    My whole point is that we are pretty much at a brick wall with combustion engines. We need collective innovation in research $$$ to launch us past the combustion engine or the $$$ to try something new altogether. Everything you hear about in the media about alternative vehicle power technologies hybrid, plug in electric, propane/compressed natural gas/ hydrogen, we have those vehicles and they are either cost, infrastructure or lifestyle prohibitive.
    car_designer
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    (BTW, if anyone wants to see something of what this forum was like during its golden age, read the rest of that thread)
    Bah...you youngsters and your faux nostalgia. The period of The Ramble is the true Golden Age of this forum before you fancy integrated device holders ruined things.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by car_designer View Post
    ...the "going green" thing has always confused me. The automakers will go as green as they have customers to pay for those "green" vehicles. Believe me, if 100% of the customers only wanted hybrids, and was willing only to pay the premium for hybrids, then every automaker would make only hybrids. The reality is that customers have diverse needs and buy diverse products and the automakers need to match the need with the products in order to have sales and profits. ...
    I assume you've watched the documentary: "Who Killed The Electric Car" (I've seen it for free on youTube though not sure if its still there).

    Its a vehicle that had PASSIONATE "owners".

    GM killed it.

    They actively subverted the EV-1 -- they consciously belittled those that wanted to buy it -- and did everything they could to strangle this baby in its crib before it had any chance.

    Why ??

    I suspect that it was entirely because they saw more profit from the life cycle of large gasoline powered vehicles.

    Electric cars last inherently longer than carbon based fueled ones -- the support infrastructure is completely different than is native to its existing dealer network.

    Diagnosing and Repairing EV-1 problems would require different machinery, different "mechanics".

    Much of the lifecycle would involve the replacement of batteries -- with the profit resting primarily with the battery producer. Electric cars -- with fewer moving parts, less vibration, less thermal stress, could easily last 10 years, 250K -- or even more.

    GM literally CRUSHED the EV-1 because of greed and ignorance.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/26/2008 at 12:56 PM.
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  20.    #40  
    Sometime around 1992 I was hired to videotape a small informal presentation by Paul MacCready, one of the leaders of GM's nascent EV-1 project.

    I had a chance to talk with him at some length before and after his lecture.

    This was several years before the EV-1 came to market -- and I was highly skeptical of the prospects of something like this coming to fruition from a company like GM.

    I was somewhat harshly dismissive to MacCready -- while he adamantly pushed back with confidence that he was going to deliver something special, a game changing genuine break through.

    I never got to see the EV-1, never got to experience its apparently spectacular ride, enjoy its silent comfort and effortless design -- but that movie: "Who Killed The Electric Car", helped me to vicariously learn all those things.

    Retrospectively I regret the skepticism I showed MacCready (who I already knew something about, and whom I had the greatest of respect for) -- but the history of the EV-1 shows that neither of us were really wrong.

    MacCready and his team delivered on the extraordinary promise that they made in the early 90's -- and in the end GM did all it could to fulfill all the skepticism that I had anticipated.

    (I wrote about this almost exactly a year ago):

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    years ago -- after GM announced the IMPACT (EV1), but before it was available -- I met the leader of that project.

    It was a car whose development was coerced by California's requirement for 2% of cars sold there to have zero emissions.

    I told him that I admired the idea of an all electric, but in my typical ignorant arrogance I went on to tell him that it was unrealistic. Batteries would not be able to provide for the distances that most americans thought they needed.

    I had heard about the hybrid idea, and asked him why they weren't going that route. His answer was idealistic but impractical (especially for someone working for GM.)

    In the end the EV1 was a much better car than I anticipated, and it was much loved apparently by its users.

    When GM forced EV1 "owners" to return them so that they could all be destroyed, it was one of the most extraordinary acts of unconscious metaphor in history.

    GM could have leveraged their experience and knowledge into being the Apple of car companies. Instead they crushed it.

    Plug in hybrids are the practical real world solution for transportion for those too fat to bike.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/26/2008 at 03:49 PM.
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