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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    (BTW DL -- I looked forward to your participation in this discussion. I hope you were not offended by my use of the word abstruse -- it was not intended as a perjorative. I only wanted you to say more ...)
    Nope, not offended . . . just been been busy lately--the dinnerplate of life has a heaping on it. I'll return when I can to respond.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Presumably no actual republicans are reading this (or else they'll steal my idea), but if they reverted to small government, and civil liberties, they would get away with their views on many social issues simply because it would amount to placating to people's selfishness--at least that's my opinion.
    Unforgettably their "social issues" are opposing what have come to be seen as civil rights.

    I think it is correct that though that the Republican Party has made social issues placating and pandering to people's selfishness their core. They are now in a bind, as they have been for several elections, in getting away from that alienating what they have defined as their base.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Unforgettably their "social issues" are opposing what have come to be seen as civil rights.

    I think it is correct that though that the Republican Party has made social issues placating and pandering to people's selfishness their core. They are now in a bind, as they have been for several elections, in getting away from that alienating what they have defined as their base.
    Lefties like BARYE (and maybe even you aero) delude themselves when we presume that because GOPers lose an election or 2, because they failed to demagogue into the Presidency THIS time with issues like gay marriage, Ayers, non-burning flags etc etc -- that something has changed fundamentally in the psyches and intelligence of the average american.

    Had junior not borrowed from China (rather than tax his rich cronies) for the financing of his contrived war in Iraq, had he not utterly mismanaged and devastated this economy, had average citizens not become more fearful of losing their jobs and their homes than of gays getting married -- Obama might still be the junior Senator from Illinois.

    Had they not taken the wondrous economy left to them by Clinton -- and delivered even a middling economy -- they would not be in the straits they’re in now.

    A bad national economy -- one where people wake in the night in dread of still having a home in the morning -- trumps everything else.

    But just barely.

    The peculiar genius of the GOP (and its dark wizards like Atwater, Rove, junior, and Lunz) is their subtle understanding of using language and words to communicate viscerally to their victims – err audience – on a deeper more persuasive (even if dishonest) level.

    Calling the estate tax (which effects the richest 1-2%) the “Death Tax”; calling the small number of often mercenary countries supplying troops in Iraq: “The Coalition”; calling the effort to stop non-heterosexuals from getting married: “The Defense of Families”; transforming the term: “anti-abortion” into: “Pro-Life”...

    Obama’s election did not really change america (at least not yet).

    The Prop 8 battle in Calif. utterly proves this.

    I do not believe the GOP lost not because the “values” agenda lost it grip on the average person -- sadly I think they lost because they screwed everything else up so badly they those auxiliary issues just became less important.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/15/2008 at 05:26 PM.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I do not believe the GOP lost not because the “values” agenda lost it grip on the average person -- sadly I think they lost because they screwed everything else up so badly they those auxiliary issues just became less important.
    Agreed 100%.

    If and when we get comfortable again with a booming economy you can be assured that the American electorate won't have anything else to worry about (in their mind) but the GOP shiny gifts that keeps on giving - intolerance and fear.
  5.    #25  
    without conservative voices adding to this thread, this discussion is becoming lifeless and static.

    I have my own agenda vis a vis the GOP and the right -- and its not especially sympathetic.

    But this topic goes nowhere without alternate points of view or debate.



    This article is from days after the election:



    Christian right regroups after Obama victory
    By ERIC GORSKI
    AP Religion Writer Nov 8, 2008

    ...White evangelicals remain a large, loyal and organized Republican voting bloc that delivered Tuesday for John McCain but could not offset the battery of factors working against Republicans in 2008.

    One pressing question in the wake of Barack Obama's historic victory is whether the Christian right can grow its own ranks or take positions with broader appeal. Some Republicans believe a tight embrace of social conservative values turns off independents and moderates, but many Christian right leaders resist compromise and contend that, if anything, the GOP has strayed too far from its principles...

    Exit polls showed McCain carried white evangelicals 74 percent to 24 percent - not far off George Bush's 79 percent to 21 percent margin over John Kerry in 2004.

    Six in 10 white evangelicals ranked the economy as their most important issue - slightly less than the voting population as a whole...

    The exit polls did not ask about abortion or gay marriage, but polls throughout the campaign showed those issues ranked low with voters regardless of religion.

    Several Christian right leaders, however, dwelled not on the presidential result but on the success in California, Arizona and Florida of constitutional amendments that, in effect, banned gay marriage. In Florida, however, gay marriage wasn't enough to tilt the pivotal battleground state to McCain.

    "Conservative politicians lost. Traditional values succeeded," said Tom Minnery, a vice president of Dobson's Focus on the Family. "It ought to tell them to get a clue about the importance of marriage. We were frustrated that Sen. McCain would not speak out about marriage strongly and repeatedly."

    Still others pointed to how Hispanics and African-Americans - who overwhelmingly backed Obama - sided with white evangelicals in rejecting gay marriage.

    "There is a common thread among these different ethnic groups, and it's church. It's faith," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. "If Republicans want to reach into those ethnic groups, really the only bridge they can cross over are the social issues. But they have to be true to them."

    Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, said immigration is another issue that holds promise.

    "Social conservatives are open to some sort of immigration reform that will be far less offensive to Hispanic voters than some of the more nativist forces" within the Republican family, he said.

    But make no mistake. These leaders have no intention of shifting focus from their big three issues: abortion, gay marriage and judges.

    Obama's election might open the door to a different breed of evangelicals - those who advocate consensus-building and expanding the agenda to include global poverty and the environment...

    On gay rights, Hunter said evangelicals can find a home in coalitions that support restricting the institution of marriage to one man and one woman but advocate that gays be able to form legal relationships short of marriage - and that no one face job discrimination...

    Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs of the National Association of Evangelicals, has clashed with culture war-oriented leaders over his activism to combat global warming...

    [There was] some evidence Tuesday that younger evangelicals are drawn to a wider agenda. While younger white evangelicals did not vault en masse to Obama, the Democrat made significant inroads. Exit polls showed the proportion of white evangelicals under age 30 who backed Obama this year was double the 16 percent who supported Kerry in 2004...

    ..."Younger evangelicals desperately wanted a change because they were so disappointed in the Bush administration."...
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/16/2008 at 05:14 AM.
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  6.    #26  
    one of the things I've learned from drilling down into the minutae of that electoral map is the strength and power of those "moral values".

    Harlan County Kentucky (the lower right corner of Kentucky) is the site of some of this country's most greivous labor troubles. Not that long ago it had one of bloodiest struggles by workers against an exploitive company.

    Its a place of mine workers, those dying of mine injuries and black lungs, and the truly impoverished (to be cruelly simplistic).

    Yet Harlan County voted 72% for McCain -- to 26% for Obama.

    This is again cruelly simplistic, but if you were to draw a demographic "topographic" map outlining the education levels of each geographic region of this country, you'd have an exceedingly good correlation to how people voted...
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    thats all a little abtuse for BARYE, DL, so I'm not entirely certain that I understand where you're going with this --

    But if I'm to interpret what you're saying through my own prism, the core problem for the contemporary GOP is the way they allowed their libertarian roots to be hijacked by the religious and evangelical fanatics.

    There is and always has been an internal intellectual contradiction between a party that ostensibly stands for a small government role in private lives --- but which in practice advocates massive intervention in areas involving private sexuality and what a woman can be allowed to do to her own body (to name just the 2 most blatant.)

    The evangelicals were grafted onto the GOP in a marriage of cynical convenience -- not organically. They have grown to overtake and consume their host -- like that monster from Alien.

    I think (and hope) that the GOP must separate itself from this religiously extremist element in order to reassert its historic role.

    This would be healthier for both the GOP and the country -- as it would be for the evangelicals themselves, who have become corrupted by the very processes that they've attempted to manipulate.
    No, just saying that if the GOP were to be smaller government, less taxes (at least those two), they might get away clean with their views on social issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, etc (which yes I do realize that some view them as civil liberties--that isn't the point).

    The reason is, things like smaller government and less taxes affect people regularly enough to keep their minds on it (read: at the forefront). How often are people faced with abortion or same-sex marriage? Overall and on the average, not much.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    No, just saying that if the GOP were to be smaller government, less taxes (at least those two), they might get away clean with their views on social issues such as same-sex marriage, abortion, etc (which yes I do realize that some view them as civil liberties--that isn't the point).

    The reason is, things like smaller government and less taxes affect people regularly enough to keep their minds on it (read: at the forefront). How often are people faced with abortion or same-sex marriage? Overall and on the average, not much.
    Just for clarification: are you saying that the GOP, as a party, could keep their current views on social issues as long as they reverted back to low taxes / small government, or that they should get the social issues off their platform and focus on the smaller government issues?

    By "get away clean", I don't understand if you mean that evangelicals will support the GOP if they eased off on the social platform, due to being supportive of smaller government, or if you mean that moderates will ignore the social conservativism, as long as taxes are lower.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Just for clarification: are you saying that the GOP, as a party, could keep their current views on social issues as long as they reverted back to low taxes / small government, or that they should get the social issues off their platform and focus on the smaller government issues?

    By "get away clean", I don't understand if you mean that evangelicals will support the GOP if they eased off on the social platform, due to being supportive of smaller government, or if you mean that moderates will ignore the social conservativism, as long as taxes are lower.
    yup -- clarify that for moi aussi, please
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    yup -- clarify that for moi aussi, please
    Fitting that your role model wasn't French either.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Just for clarification: are you saying that the GOP, as a party, could keep their current views on social issues as long as they reverted back to low taxes / small government, or that they should get the social issues off their platform and focus on the smaller government issues?
    The above in boldface.


    Maybe some here on this forum wouldn't go for it, but I think such would satisfy a lot of people simply because it is issues like the above mentioned that really hit people and on a more regular basis (taxes occur every paycheck, same-sex marriage . . . not so often).

    Basically, I'm saying that I think people--to some degree--are self-serving, but more importantly in the instance of trade-offs, I think they would be willing to trade issues that rarely affect them for issues that affect them the most.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  12. #32  
    Just for clarification: are you saying that the GOP, as a party, could keep their current views on social issues as long as they reverted back to low taxes / small government, or that they should get the social issues off their platform and focus on the smaller government issues?
    The above in boldface.


    Maybe some here on this forum wouldn't go for it, but I think such would satisfy a lot of people simply because it is issues like the above mentioned that really hit people and on a more regular basis (taxes occur every paycheck, same-sex marriage . . . not so often).

    Basically, I'm saying that I think people--to some degree--are self-serving, but more importantly in the instance of trade-offs, I think they would be willing to trade issues that rarely affect them for issues that affect them the most.
    I'll respectfully disagree, then. The veering to the right was precisely the reason that I left the Republican Party - it had less to do with whether they stood for larger / smaller government. Speaking only for myself, it had more to do with their views on Intelligent Design in schools, which had a direct impact, as well as their views on abortion, etc. They became the party of exclusion, rather than inclusion.

    If they would stick to the economic message, and totally leave the social agenda out of their platform, they'd get much more traction with moderates / independents, IMO.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If they would stick to the economic message, and totally leave the social agenda out of their platform, they'd get much more traction with moderates / independents, IMO.
    Maybe. But then again they have no credibility in fiscal conservatism either. Heck, I think Bush has borrowed more money that all US Presidents combined - that is a lot of GD borrowing! And until the Dems gave the GOP a bloody nose in 2006 the whole party stood behind Bush 100% and Bush stood behind them 100% - not a single veto in 6 years. So what remains of the Grand Ole' Party? It will be interesting to see what comes of it over the next couple of years. I'd love it if they moved to the center - or almost Liberterian in many ways - but I don't think they'd do that.
  14. #34  
    Come on now. The very purpose of the pushing evangelical "social issues" is to distract the less educated middle class the the GOP needs to fill out their numbers, to vote against their interests. Their interest are simple, to reduce stop and reverse the enormous, mensurable and growing gulf between the middle class and the very rich.

    So the GOP as constituted need the social issues as a distraction.

    Political parties are not based on ideas, views, ideals or philosophies. They are based on interest groups and they have been since ancient Greece and Rome.

    There are a 1,000 logical problems, contradictions and strange results of you examine political parties based on radiological labels or stated ideologies. The Republican party stated minimalist economic view and stated individual rights view doesn't hold up against the simple facts that they are the most fiscally profligate and anti rights. To be fair the Democratic party has the same problems.

    There are zero logical problems or observed contradictions if you examine and understand them in in terms of interests groups.

    The colonies existed under the most benign and least tyrannical empire in history to that point (am am not an Anglophile, but comparatively to being living under British rule was a paradise of rights, security and protections).

    We had a TAX revolt. The problem for the Brits was not the strength of our views or philosophy. It was we had enough group interest and marshallable military and economic to take them on while they fought other concurrent wars. They ticked off too big an interest group.
    Last edited by aero; 11/18/2008 at 07:04 PM.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Come on now. The very purpose of the pushing evangelical "social issues" is to distract the less educated middle class the the GOP needs to fill out their numbers, to vote against their [own] interests. Their interest are simple: to reduce, stop, and reverse the enormous, measurable and growing gulf between the middle class and the very rich.

    So the GOP as constituted needs the social issues as a distraction...
    I agree.

    Without the false wedge social issues, there'd be no GOP.

    If the party was organized around its genuinely core issue: protecting the wealth and interests of corporations and the rich and the powerful -- they would n't be able to quorum enough party members to field a softball team.



    The colonies existed under the most benign and least tyrannical empire in history [up] to that point (I am not an Anglophile, but comparatively [speaking], to be living under British rule was a paradise of rights, security and protections).

    We had a TAX revolt. The problem for the Brits was not the strength of our views or philosophy. It was we had enough group interest and marshallable military and economic [strength] to take them on while they fought other concurrent wars. They ticked off too big an interest group.

    this is somewhat simplistic.

    Taxation was an issue -- but the taxes in dispute were fairly modest in scope, and were not especially onerous. Remember too, these were taxes intended to repay a small part of the cost associated with defending the colonies -- costs that had mushroomed.

    The problem with those taxes was largely how they were being levied and enforced without the participation and ascent of those effected (the monied classes in particular -- who were also the most educated and sometimes the most liberal).

    As to the war --

    The hated english did not lose because they were simultaneously engaged in war elsewhere. The Seven Years War had ended in 1763 -- some 13 years earlier (under my predecessor -- who had allowed those british brutes to steal almost all our new world territories.)

    They lost because of us.

    you americans would never have defeated the english without the active involvement of the glorious French army and navy. Our participation was inseparable from your success.

    Not only did our navy defeat the despicable english off Yorktown, ensuring that the english army could not be rescued -- but 5 battalions of our troops marched from Rhode Island all the way to Virginia in support of the battles that finally defeated the english army. (nor should you forget La Fayette’s absolutely critical role helping to train and lead your rookie army).

    Finally, the english were forced to fight a land war more than 3000 miles and an ocean from home -- something not so easy even in the 20th century.

    Had winning been important enough (and had they not been so afraid of again going to war against us) -- the english would almost certainly have crushed you (as they very nearly did anyway.)

    You might read more on this glorious chapter in history here (its a truth too long suppressed in your history books -- hopefully Obama will let it finally come out ...)
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  16.    #36  
    for the record, this is the too long suppressed history:


    ...the high point of French support is the landing of five battalions of French infantry and artillery in Rhode Island in 1780. In 1781, these French troops under the command of Count Rochambeau marched south to Virginia where they joined Continental forces under Washington and Lafayette. Cornwallis, encamped on the Yorktown peninsula, hoped to be rescued by the British navy. A French fleet under the command of Admiral DeGrasse intercepted and, after a fierce battle lasting several days, defeated the British fleet and forced it to withdraw. This left the French navy to land heavy siege cannon and other supplies and trapped

    Cornwallis on the Yorktown peninsula:

    At that point, the defeat of Cornwallis was essentially a matter of time. On September 14, 1781, the French and Continental armies completed their 700 mile march and soon thereafter laid siege to the British positions. After a number of weeks and several brief but intense engagements, Cornwallis, besieged on the peninsula by the large and well-equipped French-American army, and stricken by dysentery, determined to surrender his army. On October 19, 1781, the British forces marched out between the silent ranks of the Americans and French, arrayed in parallel lines a mile long, and cast down their arms.

    Abbé Robin, who witnessed the surrender, described the victorious American and French forces present at the ceremony. "Among the Americans, the wide variety in age -- 12 to 14-year old children stood side by side with grandfathers -- the absence of uniformity in their bearing and their ragged clothing made the French allies appear more splendid by contrast. The latter, in their immaculate white uniforms and blue braid, gave an impression of martial vigor despite their fatigue. We were all astonished by the excellent condition of the English troops, by their number -- we were expecting scarcely 3,000 and they numbered more than 8,000 -- and by their discipline."

    George Woodbridge summed up the Yorktown campaign in the following words: "The strategy of the campaign was Rochambeau’s; the French fleet was there as a result of his arrangements; the tactics of the battle were his; the American army was present because he had lent money to Washington; in total naval and military participants the French outnumbered the Americans between three and four to one. Yorktown was Rochambeau’s victory.

    How strange it must have been for these French troops and their new-found colonial allies, some of whom had fought each other as enemies barely fifteen years earlier, to stand shoulder to shoulder in armed conflict with France’s ancient enemy and the colonist’s blood kin! In the end, these French soldiers became the hard anvil upon which the new American nation was forged and the chains of British imperial domination were finally broken.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/19/2008 at 11:04 AM.
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  17.    #37  
    Kathy Parker, the conservative writer who was forcibly removed from her National Review column because of her endorsement of Obama, writes about religion and its future role for the GOP:

    Giving Up on God
    By Kathleen Parker
    Tuesday, November 18, 2008

    As Republicans sort out the reasons for their defeat, they likely will overlook or dismiss the gorilla in the pulpit.

    Three little letters, great big problem: G-O-D.

    ...the evangelical, right-wing, oogedy-boogedy branch of the GOP is what ails the erstwhile conservative party and will continue to afflict and marginalize its constituents if reckoning doesn't soon cometh.

    Simply put: Armband religion is killing the Republican Party... if one were to eavesdrop on private conversations among the party intelligentsia, one would hear precisely that...

    But they need those votes!

    ... since the 1980s or so, as it has become increasingly beholden to an element that used to be relegated to wooden crates on street corners...

    ...the GOP has surrendered its high ground to its lowest brows. In the process, the party has alienated its non-base constituents, including other people of faith (those who prefer a more private approach to worship), as well as secularists and conservative-leaning Democrats who otherwise might be tempted to cross the aisle...

    ...Howard Dean was right.

    It isn't that culture doesn't matter. It does. But preaching to the choir produces no converts. And shifting demographics suggest that the Republican Party -- and conservatism with it -- eventually will die out unless religion is returned to the privacy of one's heart where it belongs.

    Religious conservatives become defensive at any suggestion that they've had something to do with the GOP's erosion. And, though the recent Democratic sweep can be attributed in large part to a referendum on Bush and the failing economy, three long-term trends identified by Emory University's Alan Abramowitz have been devastating to the Republican Party: increasing racial diversity, declining marriage rates and changes in religious beliefs.

    Suffice it to say, the Republican Party is largely comprised of white, married Christians. Anyone watching the two conventions last summer can't have missed the stark differences: One party was brimming with energy, youth and diversity; the other felt like an annual Depends sales meeting.

    With the exception of Miss Alaska, of course.
    Even Sarah Palin has blamed Bush policies for the GOP loss...

    "I'm like, okay, God, if there is an open door for me somewhere, this is what I always pray, I'm like, don't let me miss the open door. Show me where the open door is.... And if there is an open door in (20)12 or four years later, and if it's something that is going to be good for my family, for my state, for my nation, an opportunity for me, then I'll plow through that door."

    Let's do pray that God shows Alaska's governor the door...

    ...The change Barack Obama promised has already occurred, which is why he won.

    Among Jewish voters, 78 percent went for Obama. Sixty-six percent of under-30 voters did likewise. Forty-five percent of voters ages 18-29 are Democrats compared to just 26 percent Republican; in 2000, party affiliation was split almost evenly.

    The young will get older, of course. Most eventually will marry, and some will become their parents. But nonwhites won't get whiter. And the nonreligious won't get religion through external conversion. It doesn't work that way.

    Given those facts, the future of the GOP looks dim and dimmer if it stays the present course. Either the Republican Party needs a new base -- or the nation may need a new party.
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