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  1. #81  
    My points have all been raised by myself or others and I believe they've been addressed (or remained unaddressed) as much as they're going to be.

    Thanks for the chat. Unsubscribing.
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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero
    Right, why would anyone assume racism has been a problem in the US.
    Thatís exactly right, ďhas beenĒ as in past tense. Again, as Iíve already noted, while racism still exists that in no way corroborates it is a ďproblem.Ē

    NO ONE here" first assume that criticism of Obama has racial undertones."
    And I never said anyone did, nor assumed, nor inferred . . . talk about reading comprehension?!?!

    You completely misquote and misrepresent what other have written here.
    No, not one bit . . . but weíll get to that whole pesky misquoting in just a moment . . .

    Put away your "cult of victimology" garbage. The exact same language, methodology and conclusions you used are used by people like Norman Finkelstein, in "The Holocaust Industry" which the right in the states roundly denounces as antisemitic.
    Oh, well, if someone else used that concept then it must be bad. Whew, glad there are perceptive persons like yourself to let me know of these things.

    You also seemed to have slept through US history 101: Newsflash, Blacks were profound systematic victims for 400 years and a lot of the results still exist -- one being revisionist bogus denial of prejudice, to this day, from a thankfully shrinking minority (of at least one we know of) [IMG]file:///F:/DOCUME%7E1/dl/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    Yeah your right I did sleep through history class (donít worry, I made it up later) but I didnít sleep through math class. Letís see, itís almost 2009 and slavery was made illegal in 1865 . . . which means slavery has been illegal now for 144 years and one generation is 25.2 years so that puts a total of 5.7 generations since the end of slavery.

    So. How long do you suppose these result are expected to last? Iím sure I sound heartless, but given that Scandinavian countries engaged in slavery for over a thousand years (ending about 60 years before it did in the US) and they seem to be adjusting quite wellóone might expect even better results after only 400 years (246 of which actually occurred on this land).

    Who here said it was "Completely impossible." You stated people were saying the election of a black president was "completely impossible" in 2004.
    Ahhh, hereís where we tackle the issue of misquoting. Donít mind me if I quote my words for clarity:

    ďMany people are letting out a sigh of relief as if in 2004, 2000 or 1996 it was completely impossible for a black man to be POTUS based solely on race--yet, the only evidence available is that we didn't have one so therefore it must be because of race.Ē

    Funny huh? Here you claim I am misquoting people all the while, it is YOU who is actually doing the misquoting. I never stated that anyone said anything, you made that completely up. Donít believe me?

    See HERE.
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  3. #83  
    That’s exactly right, “has been” as in past tense. Again, as I’ve already noted, while racism still exists that in no way corroborates it is a “problem.”
    Apparently quite a few people in this country see that racism exists and don't see it as a problem. More's the pity.
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Sounds like you've done some reading to rationalize your ideology.

    In any event, I want to afford you the same opportunity that I have in the Gay Marriage thread. Please clear up your positions on the following:

    1. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1954? (Brown vs. Board of Education, Topeka, KS)

    2. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1965? (Executive Order 11246, Affirmative Action)

    3. Do you think is was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1968? (Civil Rights Act 1968)

    4. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1988? (Civil Rights Restoration Act)

    5. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1991? (Civil Rights Act of 1991)

    6. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1992? (Race Riots in LA)

    7. Do you think it is possible that rap music and it's success played a role in achieving more acceptance of African-American's by white youths?

    8. Do you think it is possible that Obama was more tolerable to the increased number of white voters because he is half-white?

    9. Do you think it is possible that Obama was able to achieve more because he was raised by whites? (read: this of course assumes you accept that there were socio-economic advantages to being white when he was a child)

    10. And once you've answered all of the above, I'd like to you please tell us all again why you think that the only reason there hasn't been a black President before Obama is it that they suffer from, "...cult of victimology, separatism and anti-intellectualism".

    And when you're done explaining all of that, please refer to your statement - "Call it a bonus, or a historical moment if you want . . . I sure as heck won't" - once more and tell me again why you don't see this as a historic moment important in our growth as a country in terms of race relations?
    I'm feeling neglected. Awaiting your response DL.
  5. #85  
    DL you whole repsosne is too funny. You misquoted others I neve misquoted you

    Yeah your right I did sleep through history class (don’t worry, I made it up later) but I didn’t sleep through math class. Let’s see, it’s almost 2009 and slavery was made illegal in 1865 . . . which means slavery has been illegal now for 144 years and one generation is 25.2 years so that puts a total of 5.7 generations since the end of slavery.
    You did sleep through history.

    1865. Ever hear of Jim Crow? Church bombings? lynchings, the resurgence of the Klan in the 1920s? the murders during civil rights and voting rights movements in the 1960's?

    Look you structure your argument exactly like Holocaust denial. You even site a book that uses the same structure.

    Historians, sociologist and almost all Americans are celebrating this election as historic and you are wondering why. By your logic the moon landings weren't historic, the Declaration of Independence wasn't historic (because the Magna Carta ended all problems and/or because the Declaration could have theoretically been signed an year earlier)

    You are making endless factual mistakes on US history.

    I am sorry but you are going to be one unhappy puppy for the next eight years.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'm feeling neglected. Awaiting your response DL.
    It's useless. I've challenged him on a dozen factual mistakes and he just ignores them and makes others.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I neve[r] misquoted you
    Now you are lying . . . be gone. No more responses for you.



    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    1. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1954? (Brown vs. Board of Education, Topeka, KS)

    2. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1965? (Executive Order 11246, Affirmative Action)

    3. Do you think is was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1968? (Civil Rights Act 1968)

    4. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1988? (Civil Rights Restoration Act)

    5. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1991? (Civil Rights Act of 1991)

    6. Do you think it was possible for an African-American to win the Presidency before 1992? (Race Riots in LA)
    I find it unlikely that any black person would have won the Presidency before 1996ówhich of course is only 12 years from 2008. The point being wasnít to put a timestamp on the possibility so much as it was to highlight an overwhelming canít do attitude amongst a certain segment of the population.

    Note: When I say segment, I use that to mean person who believed that a black person should be able to run for POTUS, but also believed they would lose primarily due to racism (be they black or white).

    7. Do you think it is possible that rap music and it's success played a role in achieving more acceptance of African-American's by white youths?
    No.

    8. Do you think it is possible that Obama was more tolerable to the increased number of white voters because he is half-white?
    No.

    9. Do you think it is possible that Obama was able to achieve more because he was raised by whites? (read: this of course assumes you accept that there were socio-economic advantages to being white when he was a child)
    No.

    10. And once you've answered all of the above, I'd like to you please tell us all again why you think that the only reason there hasn't been a black President before Obama is it that they suffer from, "...cult of victimology, separatism and anti-intellectualism".
    I would, except for one problem: I never stated that the only reason was because of inherent problems within the black community. I checked back over my posts to be sure and I didnít. I did note the following though (in post # 72):

    Now, what does the cult of victimology, separatism and anti-intellectualism (as it relates to race) have to do with the previous comments? All three take a real problem and extrapolate it beyond reasonable means.

    I point this out as I didnít deny racism actually exists or wasnít/isnít a stumbling block, but that certain elements within the black community run wild with an real problem (and those three elements are listed above).

    To be fair, it would be quite accurate to state that my posts reflect that such reasons are the primary reasons and not the only reason.

    Even BET somewhat supports at least one of the issues I point out above (anti-intellectualism) by their decision to air a controversial video titled, Read A Book. If you havenít seen it, look for it on YouTube and watch; the concept was produced by black persons, for young black males and played on a channel which makes itís living by
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I find it unlikely that any black person would have won the Presidency before 1996—which of course is only 12 years from 2008. The point being wasn’t to put a timestamp on the possibility so much as it was to highlight an overwhelming can’t do attitude amongst a certain segment of the population.

    Note: When I say segment, I use that to mean person who believed that a black person should be able to run for POTUS, but also believed they would lose primarily due to racism (be they black or white).
    Hmm...okay. You've basically just reinforced the significance of Obama's election to POTUS. If you acknowledge the timeline is "only 12 years from 2008" whereby an African-American could have won the Presidency coupled with a shared sense in both black and white "segments" that it was not possible...well then it would seem to me that Obama's win is in fact a historical event that should be celebrated, not dismissed out of hand.

    With respect to my other questions about rap and its influence as far as increasing tolerance amongst white youth - I admit I was guessing and only mentioned this as yet another possible contributing factor as to why Obama attracted more whites and youth votes. I suspect I'm not that off base, the question is whether or not the cross-cultural significance of rap music earned Obama 100k or 1M votes...who knows? That is above my pay grade. I think we'll agree to disagree that it played some role.

    As to whether his "mutt"-ness (being half-white) helped him earn more white votes - here again, it may be statistically insignificant, or may well have earned him 1M+ extra white votes that he otherwise may not have won. But much like the rap claim above, its merely a possible contributing factor as to how he won and one that is above my pay grade to determine the impact it had. I think we'll agree to disagree that it played some role here too.

    As to whether he had advantages that perhaps other African-Americans didn't have given his white grandparents raised him. Very tough to say. I'd lean towards "no" myself even though I asked the question. But there were many conservatives that cited his middle-class up-bringing back when the whole "is he black enough" talk was circulating. Either way, here again...above my pay grade.

    I would, except for one problem: I never stated that the only reason was because of inherent problems within the black community. I checked back over my posts to be sure and I didn’t. I did note the following though (in post # 72):

    Now, what does the cult of victimology, separatism and anti-intellectualism (as it relates to race) have to do with the previous comments? All three take a real problem and extrapolate it beyond reasonable means.

    I point this out as I didn’t deny racism actually exists or wasn’t/isn’t a stumbling block, but that certain elements within the black community run wild with an real problem (and those three elements are listed above).

    To be fair, it would be quite accurate to state that my posts reflect that such reasons are the primary reasons and not the only reason.

    Even BET somewhat supports at least one of the issues I point out above (anti-intellectualism) by their decision to air a controversial video titled, Read A Book. If you haven’t seen it, look for it on YouTube and watch; the concept was produced by black persons, for young black males and played on a channel which makes it’s living by
    Well I think that post #72 combined with your acerbic quote - ""Call it a bonus, or a historical moment if you want . . . I sure as heck won't" - which smacked of a certain level of audaciousness given your refusal to accept that Obama's win was in fact historic, didn't help.

    Truth be told, I am well aware of many black leaders who have also cited anti-intellectualism as being a pervasive problem in the black community. I do not deny this problem exists...and I'd bet President-Elect Obama wouldn't either. But it certainly wasn't the main reason an African-American has never been elected POTUS...and again, given your acknowledged 12 year timeline, it would seem even more improbable to me that his election was anything less than a significant historical moment.

    Finally, even if you are unmoved in your belief that Obama's win wasn't all that historically significant you have to admit that his election could and should have a significant impact on breaking that vicious cycle of anti-intellectualism that exists in some corners of the black community.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 11/11/2008 at 09:49 PM.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well I think that post #72 combined with your acerbic quote - ""Call it a bonus, or a historical moment if you want . . . I sure as heck won't" - which smacked of a certain level of audaciousness given your refusal to accept that Obama's win was in fact historic, didn't help.

    --snip--

    Finally, even if you are unmoved in your belief that Obama's win wasn't all that historically significant you have to admit that his election could and should have a significant impact on breaking that vicious cycle of anti-intellectualism that exists in some corners of the black community.
    I admit, it was probably a poor choice of words and looking back I think it reflects somewhat poorly on my position anyway.

    As for anti-intellectualism . . . I really hope so (break the cycle).
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I admit, it was probably a poor choice of words and looking back I think it reflects somewhat poorly on my position anyway.

    As for anti-intellectualism . . . I really hope so (break the cycle).
  11.    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I admit, it was probably a poor choice of words and looking back I think it reflects somewhat poorly on my position anyway.

    As for anti-intellectualism . . . I really hope so (break the cycle).
    Good to admit your argument sucks...

    Nice ending to our convo with you....
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