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  1. #41  
    I think the basic point of this thread has been lost: the fact that we have an African- American President is an historic event by definition - no black candidate had been a serious contender prior to now.

    We can argue forever about the reasons why, or whether it would have been possible in prior elections.

    The question I would pose is: if it's not historic in 2008, when would it have been?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The question I would pose is: if it's not historic in 2008, when would it have been?
    1865 surely.

    Personally, I think all this ignores the real casualties of the Obama presidency.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    This is a logically flawed defense. The presence of a feeling of victimization or separatism among people wh are victims does not mean they have created their own problem.

    Further, the exaggeration of victimization, to the point of a "cult of victimization" does not deny the actual victimization. For example McWhorters thesis has been compared to Norman Finkelstein book "The Holocaust Industry" (also on Amazon) and uses the same methodology, language and perspective.

    Your logical problem is that you, like Finkelstein and McWhoter,, are contending that the exaggeration or overuse of victimhood by some in a group means the the victim hood doesn't exist.

    This s the logical equivalent of saying that if one woman person exaggerated or falsely contended a rap, this shows that all how have claimed to have been raped are exaggerating.

    your cite is irrational and does not prove the you were attempting to make
    I'm not sure you've read the book, much less the excerpt I linked. Here, I'll help and highlight the portion that resolutely contradicts your ill-informed assertion:

    The first is the Cult of Victimology, under which it has become a keystone of cultural blackness to treat victimhood not as a problem to be solved but as an identity to be nurtured. Only naiveté could lead anyone to suppose that racism does not still exist, or that there are not still problems to be solved. However, the grip of the Cult of Victimology encourages the black American from birth to fixate upon remnants of racism and resolutely downplay all signs of its demise. Black Americans too often teach one another to conceive of racism not as a scourge on the wane but as an eternal pathology changing only in form and visibility, and always on the verge of getting not better but worse.

    Maybe you should take the time to actually read and focus on what you are reading because it is apparent that you have not. Nobody suggested victim hood didn't exist. In fact, to the contrary, McWhorter acknowledges it and points out that this same victimhood is being nurtured and fixated upon.

    I don't want to be rude, but you can't nurture and fixate upon something that doesn't exist.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Call me crazy, but it seemed there was plenty of room for a black man--if he actually wanted it.
    I understand your point and you've tried very hard to prove that you're right. We all get that you're not impressed and that you think black America is just as much to blame for there never being a black President before as white America. However, I don't think it is as black and white as you are purporting.

    Moreover, while you're busy using Powell as a shining example as to how a black man can exploit the opportunities that are afforded him if "he wants to", I find it ironic that he himself was brought to tears over the historic significance of President-Elect Obama's big win. But even more funny about your use of Powell as a shining example of how easy it has been for blacks to rise to the same levels as whites are the man's own words in his autobiography:

    “My career should serve as a model to fellow blacks, in or out of the military, in demonstrating the possibilities of American life. Equally important, I hoped then and now that my rise might cause prejudiced whites to question their prejudices, and help purge the poison of racism from their systems, so that the next qualified African-American who came along would be judged on merit alone. I am also aware that, over the years, my career may have given some bigots a safe black to hide behind.” Colin Powell, My American Journey, Ballantine Books, June 30, 1996
    Last edited by moderateinny; 11/06/2008 at 06:33 PM.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    1865 surely.

    Personally, I think all this ignores the real casualties of the Obama presidency.
    There wasn't a presidential election in 1865.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    There wasn't a presidential election in 1865.
    Duh...that's why it would have been historic.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think the basic point of this thread has been lost: the fact that we have an African- American President is an historic event by definition - no black candidate had been a serious contender prior to now.

    We can argue forever about the reasons why, or whether it would have been possible in prior elections.

    The question I would pose is: if it's not historic in 2008, when would it have been?
    Let's go back to what I said previously:

    I do believe that being the first of any group to accomplish something is deserves some pride; I'm just not on board with the notion that there exists any racial component that is history worthy--in fact, quite the opposite.


    As it relates to being the first? Yes, absolutely historic--and I apologize for not highlighting that better.

    As it relates to race relations? Not historic and I don't think it ever will be simply because race is becoming less and less of an obstacle (even though racism still exists). Furthermore, for the reasons I previously stated, I find that this may be evidence that race relations are still on edge, but not so much emanating from the de facto race we are all familiar with.

    True it took until 2008 for a black man to become POTUS, but that says nothing to whether a black man could become President--and to me that means a lot.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I may have worded this poorly, but the point is that while we didn't actually have a black man as POTUS, that is not indicative as to why. Assuming so presumes that correlation equals causation and is simply false.

    Many people are letting out a sigh of relief as if in 2004, 2000 or 1996 it was completely impossible for a black man to be POTUS based solely on race--yet, the only evidence available is that we didn't have one so therefore it must be because of race.
    While I think you greatly underestimate the effect of race in politics, I will agree that race is not the only factor that's kept a black from being nominated before now.

    Look at where our past presidents have come from over the last, say, 50 years. 1960 was the last time a senator was elected president. Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II were governors. Bush I was a VP, Nixon a former VP, Johnson an incumbent who suceeded Kennedy. So it appears that the best path to the White House is as either a VP or as a governor. How many black governors does America have? Only 1. How many black VPs has America had? Sadly, none.

    Now then, is race a factor in why we've had so few Black governors? I suspect it is a significant, but not the only, factor.


    The other key to becoming a serious candidate for president is money and organization. Early in the race for the 2000 election, few gave Bush much chance of election. But Bush had two things people overlooked: lots of rich friends, and a network built around his father's organization. Both proved critical to his nomination. John McCain was thought to be a far more likely nominee, but had neither Bush's money nor rolodex. In the 6 years after the election of George Bush, McCain learned from his mistake, and worked very hard to build that organization. Unforunately, doing so meant swallowing many of his principles to gain the support of the right wing core of his party.

    Prior black candidates (Keye's, Jackson) and potential candidates (Powell) faced a problem similar to McCain's in 2000. While they might have had broad support in the black community (the first two) and broad respect nationally (the latter), none had the kind of organization in place, nor the financial resources, that are necessary for a serious run at the nomination and the White House.

    Perhaps the most amazing thing about Obama's victory is the organization he was able to put in place in, for the most part, only two years. From his keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic convention to the time he announced his candidacy, he and his team put together a national organization, based mostly on local talent, that is second to none. And he defined a new paradigm for fundraising in the 21st century. No longer is wining and dining the fat cats the ticket to success. (Oh, it won't go away, but it won't be the be-all and end-all it used to be.)


    All that said, race was, is and will continue to be for some time, a factor in this campaign. Obama did far worse with older white's than Hillary did, in spite of the fact that there positions weren't that far apart. Do you really think that's because old white men thought Hillary was hot? The republican efforts to brand him as "not a real American" had race and nationality as a subtext. Attutudes are changing, but we're far from color blind. Maybe the next republican candidate can find an unqualifed black to put on the ticket as the VP nominee to try to take votes from the democrats. After all, it worked so well with Sarah and the women's vote.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  9. #49  
    I think the fact that the extremely sorry state of things in this country (and its leaders), which are so painfully obvious I'm not inspired to itemize them here, was only able to inspire barely more than half of the voting population to vote to Mr. Obama, says a great deal about the chances a Black person has and had to be elected to the highest office in this land.

    Electoral votes are misleading. The popular vote tells the tale.
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  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by west3man View Post
    ...Electoral votes are misleading. The popular vote tells the tale.
    I couldn't disagree more. Popular vote indicates that a large percentage of people in a geographically similar area will vote similarly, regardless of "truth" or "merit." The electoral college does a passable job of recognizing regional differences while still having a bias toward population densities.

    If you'd like, we can more closely examine the role the Federal Government was to play in relation to more local governments in the minds of the framers...
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Popular vote indicates that a large percentage of people in a geographically similar area will vote similarly, regardless of "truth" or "merit.
    As far as I know, "popular vote" isn't necessarily limited to a "geographically similar area." I'm talking about the entire country. To me, that's what counts.
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  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I understand your point and you've tried very hard to prove that you're right. We all get that you're not impressed and that you think black America is just as much to blame for there never being a black President before as white America. However, I don't think it is as black and white as you are purporting.

    Moreover, while you're busy using Powell as a shining example as to how a black man can exploit the opportunities that are afforded him if "he wants to", I find it ironic that he himself was brought to tears over the historic significance of President-Elect Obama's big win. But even more funny about your use of Powell as a shining example of how easy it has been for blacks to rise to the same levels as whites are the man's own words in his autobiography:
    Good post... I see it was not tackled by those who oppose/disagree your view...
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  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Good post... I see it was not tackled by those who oppose/disagree your view...
    Umm, yet
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Umm, yet


    Don't bother. I think Obama's election is historic, significant, and a major milestone in race relations. Period. That is my opinion. You have yours and made it abundantly clear, and as you can see you're not convincing anybody that it wasn't.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post


    Don't bother. I think Obama's election is historic, significant, and a major milestone in race relations. Period. That is my opinion. You have yours and made it abundantly clear, and as you can see you're not convincing anybody that it wasn't.
    Oh, so that's what this is then . . . a place to convince other people. Weird, I thought it was more a place to have a converstion and if someone is swayed one way or the other then so be it.

    Basically, you have just made yourself very clear--you have little if any intentions of seeing other viewpoints. Fair enough and thanks for setting the record straight.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  16. #56  
    This is your 14th post in this thread. We've heard your point of view and remain unconvinced that your statement "Call it a bonus, or a historical moment if you want . . . I sure as heck won't." is anything but sour grapes and defiance from someone who's guy didn't win the election.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Oh, so that's what this is then . . . a place to convince other people. Weird, I thought it was more a place to have a converstion and if someone is swayed one way or the other then so be it.

    Basically, you have just made yourself very clear--you have little if any intentions of seeing other viewpoints. Fair enough and thanks for setting the record straight.
    Well, to be fair, I don't recall once in the history of this site (and the entire Internet, if the truth be told) that anyone has ever convinced anyone else of the validity of thier side of an argument.

    Most "conversations" are really soliliquys.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, to be fair, I don't recall once in the history of this site (and the entire Internet, if the truth be told) that anyone has ever convinced anyone else of the validity of thier side of an argument.

    Most "conversations" are really soliliquys.
    In most cases I would agree; however, I actually have been either convinced of the validity of someone else's position or at a minimum put in a position to seriously re-evaluate my own.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    This is your 14th post in this thread. We've heard your point of view and remain unconvinced that your statement "Call it a bonus, or a historical moment if you want . . . I sure as heck won't." is anything but sour grapes and defiance from someone who's guy didn't win the election.
    This is only because you refuse to listen. I have said over and over that McCain was hardly, my "guy" and more a means to keep Obama--who I was really against--out. My last hope (but not my first pick) was Romney.

    I share Coulter's perspective on McCain:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ann Coulter
    After showing nearly superhuman restraint throughout this campaign, which was lost the night McCain won the California primary, I am now liberated to announce that all I care about is hunting down and punishing every Republican who voted for McCain in the primaries. I have a list and am prepared to produce the names of every person who told me he was voting for McCain to the proper authorities.
    Last edited by DL.Cummings; 11/08/2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Edited to be less abrasive
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    In most cases I would agree; however, I actually have been either convinced of the validity of someone else's position or at a minimum put in a position to seriously re-evaluate my own.
    Ditto. I agree. In fact, I believe I've even been convinced to agree with you from time to time.

    This isn't one of them. Sorry.
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