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  1. #361  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    No, Toby, he is just repeating what the Democrat party has been saying for years. Without the help of the government, a citizen has no chance.
    And without the help of government wall street and rapacious corporate interests have no chance? It would seem so with the corporate welfare state .
  2. #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Not exactly. Public works do benefit all to some extent, so it's hard to classify them as wealth redistribution.
    This is not really correct. All taxation incomes removal of private asset and literally none of the result can be said to be redistributed according to amount each citizen or entity is taxed.
    All taxation is effectively redistribution.
  3. #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Under Reagan there was an increase in spending that did eventually take care of itself. Under a socialist government though, I suggest you do not hold your breath. No socialist government has yet to do what it says it will do. Heck, Hugo Chevez cannot keep the power on.
    Chevez and Palin's Alaska are indeed two of the best examples of socialism in the hemisphere
  4. #364  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    No it isn't that is a factor of production.
    It has nothing to do with being a 'factor of production'. Capital in an economic sense _is_ the means of production. Capital is wealth, equipment, land, etc.
    We are talking about the textbook defintion here.
    Which textbook is the question? I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone with a degree in business, so I've read a few. In none of them was capital not considered the fundamental means of production. The terms are largely interchangeable.
    I think I was appreciative and not confrontation of your extension to non textbook means to capital,
    My extension is not non-textbook was the point. Capital means much more than just currency.
    The seizure and redistribution of what in present value would be hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of land doesn't count?
    As socialism? Not particularly. The Federal Park system would probably be closer.
    The federal and state government supporting, abetting tens of trillions in slave labor?
    No, that's definitely not socialism.
    I was referring to the sedition act of 1918 and mistakenly wrote alien and sedition.
    Ah, well that makes much more sense since the Alien and Sedition Acts had nothing to do with socialism per se (unless you want to tie in post-Revolutionary France as being the smear).
    Under the sedition act of 1918 the labeling of people as socialists and jailing began.
    'Ironically' presided over by the same administration that was there when we started down the spiral.
    Let's be precise here. Tax revenue increased under reagan by 80% but almost all of that came from inflation, gdp growth was actually slow relative to Clinton.
    That wasn't the point. The point was that revamping the tax structure wasn't what caused the deficit to grow to that level. Trying to bankrupt the CCCP in the arms race was.
    This is not really correct. All taxation incomes removal of private asset and literally none of the result can be said to be redistributed according to amount each citizen or entity is taxed.
    I'm really not clear on what you're trying to say here.
    All taxation is effectively redistribution.
    Except that philosophically, the difference is in use. If legislation is passed which taxes the population to provide a _public_ roadway, that is a fundamentally different animal than taking the same money and paving John McCain's driveway.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #365  
    Some light reading concerning taxes: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1223...googlenews_wsj
  6. #366  
    I am sure everyone has seen this poll and everyone ....http://www.personalliberty.com/resul...vs-mccain-poll
  7. #367  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I am sure everyone has seen this poll and everyone ....http://www.personalliberty.com/resul...vs-mccain-poll

    The first question shows how disconnected you are with your posts... let me see....

    1) Who won the last presidential debate?
    70% voted: John McCain
    19% voted: Barack Obama
    11% voted: Neither


    Right... no one in their right mind think mccain won that debate.
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  8. #368  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    In this country, one can make it on their own - that is capitalism. Many people have made it on their own from nothing. I work for such a man. No one helped him. No government subsidies. He saw a market and made his move. He created jobs on his own, not with the help of the government.
    I think you totally missed my point..

    With the current (and McCain system) the old boy network scratches each others backs and they get the biggest tax breaks.
    Judging from what I can see on that chart Obama wants to put a stop at that and balance things out again...
    Which to me is only fair...

    And as far as you 'in this country' jab, it works the same in all the countries I have lived in, and I work for 3 self made men too, so nothing new there..

    But I'll step out of this discussion since I dont want to get into a pointless argument..
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  9. #369  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I am sure everyone has seen this poll and everyone ....http://www.personalliberty.com/resul...vs-mccain-poll
    Well, if it's on "personalliberty.com (live free in an unfree world)", it must be more objective than CNN. After all, the owner of the site, Bob Livingston, is described as an "ultra-conservative". Who describes him that way? Well, Bob Livington, of course.

    After your youtube post on the other thread, it's obvious that you have other sources of concern about Obama that have nothing to do with policy. I'll be adding you to my blocked list & I urge other to simply ignore you. Feeding trolls never works.
    Last edited by Bujin; 11/01/2008 at 09:00 AM.
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  10. #370  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    With the current (and McCain system) the old boy network scratches each others backs and they get the biggest tax breaks.
    Judging from what I can see on that chart Obama wants to put a stop at that and balance things out again...
    Which to me is only fair...
    I'm not sure if 'balance' is the right phrase. The charts leave out a few pieces of information, namely percentages of the existing tax burden (well, that and the likelihood that the 102,000-250,000 income brackets' tax reductions in income tax may be wiped out by changes to FICA, but that's a whole other discussion). IMO, if we were trying to really balance things and make them fair, we'd go to a 'flat tax' or 'fair tax' model. Namely, pick the income level that's considered a baseline for an individual/couple/household, and no income below that line is taxed. After that point, either have a set percentage with no deductions, or a few progressive brackets, again with no deductions. The current system is so convoluted and complex because of the good old boy network, but don't fool yourself into thinking that both major parties don't play in that same network.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #371  
    Theog, another thought also comes in to this and that is there are bunches who think McCain came out ahead. Even the pundits agree that the messiah was on the defensive throughout the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The first question shows how disconnected you are with your posts... let me see....

    1) Who won the last presidential debate?
    70% voted: John McCain
    19% voted: Barack Obama
    11% voted: Neither


    Right... no one in their right mind think mccain won that debate.
  12. #372  
    For those interested - CNN's poll regarding the debate is here:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS...oll/index.html
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  13. #373  
    Toolkit, you miss the point and miss it widely. There is no change in the Obama platform or group. Obama was made by the Chicago political group. He knocked on the machine's door, not the other way around. Biden has been in office for 30 plus years and has been part of the problem since then. McCain has been in office for the same period and has been part of the problem since then. With that said, where really is the change? The only change in this is Sara Palin - she is knew to the game. She is the change.

    Look at Obama - he has done nothing throughout his political career. He has carefully avoided doing anything controversial other than choosing people he should really have stayed away from due to his real desire to seek the Office of the Presidency - that means representing the people of the country and with the people in his past, murderers, terrorists, anti-Semites, anti-white, well the list is just plain longer than most pieces of paper. Obama does not support family values in the traditional American view. Frankly, the man's politics are way too far to the left to unite this country in the manner he states he will. Dependency on the government is his kick, not dependence on the individual. The man is pro-family, then why does he not take a bit of his million dollars and help his own family members? Read around.

    The argument becomes pointless only if you want it to be and that looks like in the eyes of the silent majority here that you are not wanting to say anything bad about the guy or that you do not want to take the time to understand the other side. Well, I do not dislike Obama, just his politics. Move further to the middle and stay there makes me happy. He will not though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    I think you totally missed my point..

    With the current (and McCain system) the old boy network scratches each others backs and they get the biggest tax breaks.
    Judging from what I can see on that chart Obama wants to put a stop at that and balance things out again...
    Which to me is only fair...

    And as far as you 'in this country' jab, it works the same in all the countries I have lived in, and I work for 3 self made men too, so nothing new there..

    But I'll step out of this discussion since I dont want to get into a pointless argument..
  14. #374  
    Read further down about the categories and at the time of the debate, which is what I base my statement on, the pundits were high on the McCain side. Regardless, as we know, polls can be bent any way one likes. See my example if you did not all ready.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    For those interested - CNN's poll regarding the debate is here:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS...oll/index.html
  15.    #375  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Read further down about the categories and at the time of the debate, which is what I base my statement on, the pundits were high on the McCain side. Regardless, as we know, polls can be bent any way one likes. See my example if you did not all ready.
    Pundits in general misperceived McShame as having won the 3rd debate in particular.

    Many Pundits -- and even people who post here -- thought McShame had done well in the first debate.

    It was average viewers (and BARYE) who declared that McShame had done badly in the 1st & 3rd debates -- the ones that most mattered.

    Had Obama stumbled badly in that 1st debate -- held during the McShame "we can't debate now" stunt -- this election would have been VERY different.
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  16. #376  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm not sure if 'balance' is the right phrase. The charts leave out a few pieces of information, namely percentages of the existing tax burden (well, that and the likelihood that the 102,000-250,000 income brackets' tax reductions in income tax may be wiped out by changes to FICA, but that's a whole other discussion). .
    True, so I based my statement on how I understand the current system is.
    But it would be great to have a full graph with a before and after picture so you can see the bigger picture..

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    IMO, if we were trying to really balance things and make them fair, we'd go to a 'flat tax' or 'fair tax' model. Namely, pick the income level that's considered a baseline for an individual/couple/household, and no income below that line is taxed. After that point, either have a set percentage with no deductions, or a few progressive brackets, again with no deductions. The current system is so convoluted and complex because of the good old boy network, but don't fool yourself into thinking that both major parties don't play in that same network.
    I'd vote for a system like that...
    In some european countries there have been debates to propose similar systems, but unfortunately have not materialised...


    Quote Originally Posted by BCKLINGER
    Toolkit, you miss the point and miss it widely. There is no change in the Obama platform or group.
    From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) the Bush gov has been giving the (very) rich more tax breaks than the rest. So from that perspective it certainly is a change...
    If you look at the graph the mayor difference between the 2 is the top 1%...
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  17. #377  
    Personally, I'm appreciative of the fact that bclinger had educated us that Obama doesn't represent American values. After all, as he pointed out in his youtube link, Obama'll "bring all the blacks over, including his family's tribe".

    Let's face it, a debate on issues isn't going to get anywhere - some folks have there minds made up & are trying to skew the "facts" to fit their pre-conceptions. Giving a reasoned response to these folks only gives them an outlet to further spew.

    Luckily, in a couple of days, I have faith that most of the country can be trusted to be a bit more open-minded in their reasoning.
    Last edited by Bujin; 11/01/2008 at 03:42 PM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #378  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The man is pro-family, then why does he not take a bit of his million dollars and help his own family members? Read around.
    You don't know what obama has or has not done for his family....

    Your comments are illogical... funny, but illogical.
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  19. #379  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Personally, I'm appreciative of the fact that bclinger had educated us that Obama doesn't represent American values. After all, as he pointed out in his youtube link, Obama'll "bring all the blacks over, including his family's tribe".

    Let's face it, a debate on issues isn't going to get anywhere - some folks have there minds made up & are trying to skew the "facts" to fit their pre-conceptions. Giving a reasoned response to these folks only gives them an outlet to further spew.

    Luckily, in a couple of days, I have faith that most of the country can be trusted to be a bit more open-minded in their reasoning.
    After bclinger's racist remarks toward me earlier this year, I don't know why anyone would be surprised at his remarks toward obama....

    bclunker has eased off his racist remarks after several other forum members got very upset... but I see he is pushing that envelope again.... I have to sit back and laugh at him... luckily his thoughts do not represent America as a whole.
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  20. #380  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    True, so I based my statement on how I understand the current system is.
    But it would be great to have a full graph with a before and after picture so you can see the bigger picture..
    The problem is that the situation is more complex than would fit on a simple graph. After all, income tax is only part of the picture. Just considering income tax, the top 1% of AGI pay ~40% of the taxes. The top 5% (AGI above ~$150K) pay ~60%. The bottom 50% pay less than 3% of the taxes, and the bottom ~33% pay no taxes. OTOH, the total tax picture gets really complicated by adding FICA, state taxes, 'sin' taxes, etc. into the mix.

    Note: Links provided for convenience to IRS data. No political endorsements or affiliations implied or intended.
    I'd vote for a system like that...
    In some european countries there have been debates to propose similar systems, but unfortunately have not materialised...
    Don't think it'll ever materialize here again due to the inertia of the tax system in place. Amazing how much cruft can build up in less than 100 years.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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