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  1.    #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Not a dang thing, though it is not a fabrication. We all aware of links disappearing when the pressure gets high. As for the laziest Presidents in history, Where do you place Billy in this? At least Regan instilled pride in the country, brought down the Soviet Union and gave us a set of memoirs that he actually wrote himself.
    First: Regan was fired by Nancy because Regan was a skeptic about astrology (Nancy wanted to run the country by it.)

    Second: Bill Clinton was likely the hardest working President since Thomas Jefferson (who also probably had more dalliances than Bill too).

    Bill would routinely work 16-18 hour day -- while consuming copious volumes of detailed briefing material.

    Third: The Soviet Union was brought down by the people of eastern Europe and Russia, British Rock and Roll, American movies, Afghanistan, and Gorbachev. Raygun's contribution was less than marginal.

    Fourth: the idea that this Alzheimer's afflicted actor would write an entire book unassisted seems to me more far fetched than Star Wars.

    Fifth:
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The person I was referring to came from the Clinton administration and is responsible for the "wall" that was erected between the CIA and FBI that prevented the 2 agencies from sharing information. The agency: FBI headed by Louis Freeh. She left the administration and went to Fannie Mac where she was forced out due to a financial scandal, but before leaving, she pocketed $96 million dollars. After leaving that post, she went to work for the Obama campaign and is there as an adviser.

    It is amazing, the link I have in my notes was valid and when checked today it has been cleared out.

    Politics.
    unless proof is provided about this notorious woman -- someone who got $96 million from Fannie Mae -- it might seem reasonable for us to assume that this stuff was made up.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/09/2008 at 02:00 PM.
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  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    unless proof is provided about this notorious woman -- someone who got $96 million from Fannie Mae -- it might seem reasonable for us to assume that this stuff was made up.
    One can only guess that he's referring to Jamie Gorelick.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    One can only guess that he's referring to Jamie Gorelick.
    Probably. I honestly would like a reliable source about her and whatever controversy she's involved with. I just tried to search around and every single link I hit was right-wing blogs. But before I dismiss it as rumor, I'd like to know where I can read about it. Do you have any links? The closest I got was thinkprogress (which leans very left) and some debunking of Malkin and her cronies back in 2005 over some other matter.

    In any event, with nothing left but dubious sources, I'm skeptical. But I won't really rule anything out yet until I can read the facts.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Do you have any links?
    I've got a Slate link, but that's about it other than a Wikipedia article.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I've got a Slate link, but that's about it other than a Wikipedia article.
    Thx - I've been trying for a while now and the link doesn't work? Must be a conspiracy.

    I'll try again later. Thx again.
  6. #206  
    That's the name, Gorlick. The link I had was removed. Fannie Mae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick, the 9/11 situation http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=50991,
    http://volokh.com/posts/1216060102.shtml
    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...-disaster.html

    Anyway, light reading and she got $26 million, not $96.
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    That's the name, Gorlick. The link I had was removed. Fannie Mae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick, the 9/11 situation http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=50991,
    http://volokh.com/posts/1216060102.shtml
    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...-disaster.html

    Anyway, light reading and she got $26 million, not $96.
    I prefer Toby's link to Slate, which appropriately, calls the Fannie Mae situation a "Vast Bipartisan Conspiracy" - detailing persons from both sides of the isle that had their hand in the Fannie Mae cookie jar.

    Feel free to read it instead of your right-wing sources to get a more balanced look at the Fannie Mae situation.

    What the he!! this has to do with which two Presidents took the most vacation is beyond me. You've never replied to the fact that Bush has take more than two times the amount of vacation our military personnel are allowed per year. He was a lazy sack of sh$t and your tax dollars paid for each of his "brush clearing" excursions down to Crawford and yet, you cannot even respond with anything even relevant other than another right-wing shiny object to divert attention from the charge I've made.

    Again...please go take your meds. I'm tired (having just got off a red-eye) and grumpy and in no mood for the babbling Ben - I prefer semi-rational Ben instead....which we've not seen a lot of lately.
  8.    #208  
    though the McShame campaign has been relentless in attempting to smear Obama by using the Ayres -- they have hardly mentioned Rev. Wright, Obama's observation that certain voters were "bitter", or Rezko.

    I wonder if that reflects a strategic judgment -- or if there really has been some restraint from McShame and company...
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  9. #209  
    Look someone in the eye? Did you watch the debates? Your statement is just plain false. McCain has always looked his audience in the eye, Obama does not. Anyway, it is not a matter of doing something, as both have advisers. What is important is what they have done and that does involve their past. The associations that Obama has in his past continue to haunt him and do indicate a level of judgment that cannot be ignored.

    Associations with people like Ayers - totally unrepentant for his crimes and involvement in murder. Obama's claim that he did not know about Ayers past - does that really sound solid to anyone? No. Obama has a history of liberalism and with his educational background and associations, that statement is not believable. To sit on a church bench for 20 years and hear the hate coming from Wright, to say he had not heard it - really now, that does not hold an echo of truth. To not know about Rezko, the man well known in Chicago as a slum lord, well again, he just gave Obama money. Sure. No one believes it.

    Obama gives us hope? Obama is a politician like McCain. McCain's history has problems, but he has not run away from them. Obama has never stopped running away from his past.
  10.    #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    my reaction was more cynical -- that they have finally realized that rousing their base does nothing to help them win the center, the independents, the undecideds -- it does nothing to help them win the election...
    It seems as though there really has been a strategic shift by McShame and company away from the Ayers smear.


    Palin Tempers Attacks on Obama
    By Michael M. Grynbaum NYTimes
    October 11, 2008

    JOHNSTOWN, Pa — Despite an enthusiastic reception on Saturday in this small Pennsylvania town, Gov. Sarah Palin dialed back the attacks on Senator Barack Obama that have typified her public appearances of late...

    The name of William Ayers, the 1960s radical that the McCain campaign has tried to tie to its opponent, was not spoken once by the Alaska governor, a stark contrast to a series of increasingly vituperative attacks related to Mr. Ayers that she delivered at private fund-raisers and large-scale rallies in the past week...

    It was a shift for the governor, who, in three fund-raisers on Friday, tried to raise questions about Mr. Obama’s personality and patriotism, charging that he had chosen “ambition over country” and “started his political career in the living room of an unrepentant terrorist.” That language was gone from Saturday’s speech.

    In fact, the only mention of Mr. Ayers came from a lone agitator in the otherwise temperate crowd, who shouted, “What about Ayers?” during a pause in the governor’s remarks. Ms. Palin did not acknowledge him.
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  11.    #211  
    More from the NYTimes regarding how McShame & company are realizing that their demogogic campaign is destructively costing them the support of independent undecideds:



    Concern in G.O.P. After Rough Week for McCain
    By ADAM NAGOURNEY and ELISABETH BUMILLER NYTimes
    October 12, 2008

    ... no subject has more divided Republicans than the one that has been a matter of disagreement in the McCain camp: how directly to invoke Mr. Obama’s connection to his controversial former minister, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., and William Ayers, a former member of the Weather Underground who has had a passing association with Mr. Obama over the years.

    In Colorado, a traditionally Republican state that Mr. McCain is struggling to keep in his column, the party chairman, **** Wadhams, urged Mr. McCain to hit the issue hard, arguing that it was fair game and could be highly effective in raising questions about Mr. Obama in the final weeks of the campaign. He said he was surprised Mr. McCain had failed to do so in the debate last week.

    “I think those are legitimate insights into who Senator Obama is,” Mr. Wadhams said. “I do not think it is irrelevant to this election.”

    But Fergus Cullen, the Republican chairman in New Hampshire, said Saturday that he thought it would be a mistake for Mr. McCain to go down that road, warning that it would turn off moderate voters in his state who have a history of supporting Mr. McCain.

    “I don’t think he should be giving into elements of the base who have been asking him to be going after, using Wright, using Ayers,” Mr. Cullen said. “Think about it as an undecided persuadable voter.”


    Although Mr. McCain has declared Mr. Wright off limits, the campaign has brought up Mr. Ayers. But the campaign appeared to step back a bit in raising that relationship Saturday. At a rally in Iowa, Mr. McCain stuck to his usual attacks on the Democratic nominee on taxes, the financial crisis and housing.

    For her part, Ms. Palin appeared to pull back on the sharp jabs at a fund-raiser in Philadelphia.

    “We just want to make sure that in this campaign, that we uphold the standards of tolerance and truth-telling,” she said. “There have been things said, of course, that have allowed those standards to be violated on both sides, on both tickets...
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  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    More from the NYTimes regarding how McShame & company are realizing that their demogogic campaign is destructively costing them the support of independent undecideds:



    Concern in G.O.P. After Rough Week for McCain
    By ADAM NAGOURNEY and ELISABETH BUMILLER NYTimes
    October 12, 2008

    ... no subject has more divided Republicans than the one that has been a matter of disagreement in the McCain camp: how directly to invoke Mr. Obama’s connection to his controversial former minister, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., and William Ayers, a former member of the Weather Underground who has had a passing association with Mr. Obama over the years.

    In Colorado, a traditionally Republican state that Mr. McCain is struggling to keep in his column, the party chairman, **** Wadhams, urged Mr. McCain to hit the issue hard, arguing that it was fair game and could be highly effective in raising questions about Mr. Obama in the final weeks of the campaign. He said he was surprised Mr. McCain had failed to do so in the debate last week.

    “I think those are legitimate insights into who Senator Obama is,” Mr. Wadhams said. “I do not think it is irrelevant to this election.”

    But Fergus Cullen, the Republican chairman in New Hampshire, said Saturday that he thought it would be a mistake for Mr. McCain to go down that road, warning that it would turn off moderate voters in his state who have a history of supporting Mr. McCain.

    “I don’t think he should be giving into elements of the base who have been asking him to be going after, using Wright, using Ayers,” Mr. Cullen said. “Think about it as an undecided persuadable voter.”


    Although Mr. McCain has declared Mr. Wright off limits, the campaign has brought up Mr. Ayers. But the campaign appeared to step back a bit in raising that relationship Saturday. At a rally in Iowa, Mr. McCain stuck to his usual attacks on the Democratic nominee on taxes, the financial crisis and housing.

    For her part, Ms. Palin appeared to pull back on the sharp jabs at a fund-raiser in Philadelphia.

    “We just want to make sure that in this campaign, that we uphold the standards of tolerance and truth-telling,” she said. “There have been things said, of course, that have allowed those standards to be violated on both sides, on both tickets...
    The truth be told, I don't think mccain really expected obama to come out with the keating ads... or mention those ads... or mention bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.... obama has basically said, "If you want to play dirty, we can play dirty." Unfortunately for McCain, obama has plenty of money to toss around at McCain's past... and McCain has a checkered past.

    McCain can't win the "name calling" game.

    So what if obama went nation-wide about how McCain cheated on his first wife to be with his current wife.... lol.... hell, mccain has nothing on obama.... obama is so new to politics. That should have been the attack from day one.... but mccain messed that up... all this crap about ayers means nothing...

    Then mccain picked palin as a vp.... that was crazy. If nothing more, that pick legitimized Obama more than ANYTHING in this entire campaign.
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  13. #213  
    The case against Ayers died because of improper surveillance. Ayers admits to his deeds and goes so far as to say he did not do enough. Read about him on the Wikipedia site. Making bombs, people getting killed making bombs, et cetera, those are illegal. Whether he was convicted or not is not the question - and he does not deny his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by andonemorething View Post
    The audience is not the person being lied about. McCain will not look Obama (who is standing 15 feet away from him) in the eye and repeat the same lies he pays others to spread.

    Ayres has not broken any laws as the courts decided that years ago. In fact, Ayres being awarded Citizen of the Year for 1997 in Chicago is pretty cool.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The case against Ayers died because of improper surveillance. Ayers admits to his deeds and goes so far as to say he did not do enough. Read about him on the Wikipedia site. Making bombs, people getting killed making bombs, et cetera, those are illegal. Whether he was convicted or not is not the question - and he does not deny his actions.
    I won't defend Ayers - and Obama has certainly not defended him. Albeit, Ayers wasn't a very good terrorists as they only killed three of themselves accidentally and phoned in warnings for the other bombings so innocent civilians could be evacuated. But again, Ayers did things that were detestable and Obama is on record as denouncing them.

    The truth can be found in the link provided - the rest is just nasty lies and distortions meant to make Obama seem like someone that "pals around with terrorists".
  15. #215  
    Obama has not helped the impression with beginning his politics at the man's home, the committees, et cetera. For me, there is an association. There is no way I would be able to work with a person with Ayer's past. The fact that he has not issued an apology, that he states he did not do enough, well...may he be your next door neighbor and hope he does not get angry at you.
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Obama has not helped the impression with beginning his politics at the man's home, the committees, et cetera. For me, there is an association. There is no way I would be able to work with a person with Ayer's past. The fact that he has not issued an apology, that he states he did not do enough, well...may he be your next door neighbor and hope he does not get angry at you.
    More blather...no facts. Again, feel free to post something from a credible source. Otherwise, take your pills and call us after the election.
  17. #217  
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama%E...rs_controversy. Please note that she used this to introduce Obama, just read the article. Note further down about the Annenerg challenge and the controversy that subsequently created.

    The infanticide issue is false? No, it is not. Start here http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11799 and read around.

    Read this http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...fanticide.html - you cannot have it 2 ways. You are either anti-abortion or for it and the results of the act.
  18. #218  
    I think it's funny that the Question of the Day on a major news network asked whether the Ayers issue would have an impact on Obama's ability to handle our economy, as McCain asserts. The question ended up with 29% saying 'yes' and 71% saying 'no'.

    We know that the media is in the tank for Obama: for example, the mainstream media site that hosted this question? FoxNews.
    Last edited by Bujin; 10/13/2008 at 02:25 PM.
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  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Read this http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...fanticide.html - you cannot have it 2 ways. You are either anti-abortion or for it and the results of the act.
    Thank you for using factcheck.org. It's good to see that you view it as credible - well at least when it suits your argument.

    But as factcheck.org states - whether Obama supports infanticide is largely left open to interpretation. And you've pretty much said the same thing above.

    But interpretation and what the candidate actually feels are not the same. I seriously doubt that Obama personally "supports" infanticide - but that is my interpretation. You on the other hand, are anti-abortion - and possibly even one as extreme as Palin - so your interpretation is that Obama "supports" infantcide because he is pro-choice. Pretty big stretch.

    Frankly, I heard the man said he thinks we ought to be looking to find common ground on this very subject, rather than where we differ. As such, my "interpretation" is that Obama would support curbing infanticide, but ultimately leave it to professionals to make the call when the circumstances dictate. In other words, he would not promote infanticide as a viable means of birth control any more than he would abortion - and anything spun otherwise is pure rhetoric.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/13/2008 at 05:12 PM.
  20.    #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    ...one of the Obama's fallacies was his assumption that he could bury McCain with his fundraising prowness.

    He rejected public financing based on that.

    The GOP's party money is more than offsetting that advantage --

    Obama additionally has had to waste energy and time pleading for money (often times from Hillary's friends) -- plus its hard to budget for a 6 week campaign when you don't know how much you will have.

    Obama has also wasted what advantage he had had by putting millions into ineffective ads into red states -- all part of their delusional expectation that they would win in places like Montana, S Dakota, etc.

    though its much too soon to be having a victory dance or doing an autopsy on the rotting corpse of the McShame campaign, its already come time to evaluate some of BARYE's complaints about Obama's strategic choices.

    I was more than skeptical that putting his limited resources into red states made sense. I feared that he was throwing water into the desert -- that it would suck it up and leave nothng to show for the efforts.

    I also feared that his projected advantage in going outside the public campaign financing system -- aside from its ethical dimension -- was based on over optimistic projection based on the fund-raising successes they had in the primaries.

    I feared that as the inevitable GOPer assault savaged him, he would lose the wide enthusiasm required to raise the huge funds they were anticipating.

    In places like N Carolina -- a state that has almost always gone Repugnican -- the Obama campaign has invested major resources in both advertising and ground level "get out the vote" operations.

    The operative theory behind this effort was to force McShame to waste his more limited resources in places that normally would be safe for him.

    In September I would have believed that this whole operation was a quixotical quest.

    Its already clear that I was wrong in this belief.

    Everything I've read shows me that McShame is being bleed white (as it were) by having to shift money, resources, and attention into what had been historically safe GOP states.

    No matter how desperately bad the economy is -- no matter how terrified people are, no matter how justified their fears about the future -- without this on the ground preparation by the Obama campaign, they would not have gained as much potential support as they have.

    Had McShame not been forced to allocate energy and money to places like N. Carolina, they would have contested places like Michigan harder and longer.

    I don't know if they will end up winning N. Carolina and other red states, but the fact that they have been able to leverage their greater pool of resources to force a battle of attrition onto McShame has dramatically shifted the field of battle to ground more favorable to Obama.



    Blood in the water in North Carolina
    Republican Sen. Liddy Dole may be a goner, and John McCain is in trouble in a state the GOP hasn't lost since 1976. What happened?

    By Mike Madden Salon
    Oct. 13, 2008

    ...In any other election year, what's happening in North Carolina would be just another case of a first-term senator paying a little less attention to winning a second term than she probably should have, and discovering voters had noticed. (Dole, who lives in Washington's Watergate apartment complex with her husband, Bob, recently found herself on the defensive over newspaper reports that she spent only 13 days in the state in 2006; aides say she made unspecified other trips when she didn't do any official business, but that's not much of a comeback.) But even if Dole hasn't wrecked her chances all by herself, she may get run over by Barack Obama's campaign. No Democratic presidential candidate has won North Carolina since Jimmy Carter in 1976, but -- shockingly -- the state has become a battleground in this election. John McCain's strategists have already concluded Dole is a lost cause, and now they're trying to keep North Carolina's 15 electoral votes from going to Obama.

    "The McCain campaign is playing a little catch-up in North Carolina now," said Paul Shumaker, the chief consultant for Republican Sen. Richard Burr...As a sign of how scary the national map now looks for McCain, he is actually going to have to show up in North Carolina -- he will be in Wilmington on Monday, in a corner of the state where Republicans need to rack up big margins to offset Democratic strength in Charlotte and the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill "Research Triangle." (The suburbs and exurbs between Charlotte and the Triangle are where the race may well be determined.) Sarah Palin was in North Carolina last week, and Cindy McCain was in the state Saturday...

    ...Like everywhere else this year, part of what has Democrats excited is the potential for a surge of new voters. Since January, Democrats added 245,305 new registrations, while Republicans added 46,748. A third of the new voters are black, according to state statistics. The state has seen an influx of newcomers over the last decade, drawn -- until recently -- by the banking industry in Charlotte and the high-tech jobs in the Triangle...

    ...to take advantage of that dynamic, Obama has 45 field offices open, everywhere from Charlotte, the state's biggest city, to Cullowhee, with fewer than 4,000 residents. He's spending more than $1 million on TV ads a week, while McCain just ratcheted up his buy in the last few days; now both campaigns are spending enough to dot the NFL broadcasts on Sunday with political commercials. Obama's state headquarters, in an upscale office building on the outskirts of Raleigh, just expanded to take over a second suite down the hall. On top of that, Obama almost has more volunteers than his aides here know what to do with. "Every precinct in this state will be worked by people from that precinct,"...

    By simply forcing McCain to work for North Carolina -- and spend money here -- Obama has already done more than some people in the state expected when the campaign first announced it would make North Carolina a priority. But it's quite possible Obama will manage much more than that...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/13/2008 at 03:08 PM.
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