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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    #1 was McCain....
    Which you know was intended as a comparison between Clinton and Palin. Of course never mind the pathetic almost admitted response from Clinton on his affair as opposed to McCain. Those things don't make a difference, only what the mantra one wishes to chant today.

    Clinton:

    "Indeed, I did have a relationship with Ms. Lewinsky that was not appropriate. In fact, it was wrong."

    McCain:

    "But my marriage's collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine."

    Quote Originally Posted by reshifted
    I had sex education in the 70s and I didn't become a sex-crazed teen. Neither did my wife. I'm a happily monogamous father of two and I don't appreciate folks like Palin spreading their religious fantasies in public schools.
    Awww, that's so cute of you. Calling not having sex until you're married a "religious fantasy" . . . as opposed to, I don't know . . . a worthy goal for kids to strive for.

    I just hope that the church does't start preaching about the merits of college and education . . . we don't want those falling under the broad brush of "religious fantasy."
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  2. #62  
    Sex education - more of it? Probably not. My sons were told at age 10 and then updated as they got older. Their problem was strictly hormonal - it affects male and female.

    As for the wife, thank you. It has been a tough year, but at this stage, the left lung (80% cancer when diagnosed 7-9-07) is at 0 on the cancer, but we have scar tissue to work on. The right lung has 2 very small spots. Each time we have a CT scan, we start becoming very concerned, but so far they have shown good progress. It affects every aspect of my family. Thanks for asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Ben,

    Is it possible that more comprehensive sex ed could have helped Palen's daughter avoid this "mistake"? The irony here is unavoidable.

    On another note: I am sorry to hear about your wife's illness. I hope she is doing ok, considering....
  3. #63  
    It is far from "puritanical" - abstinence when presented properly does work, but it needs reinforcement. What really matters though is the knowledge that no one prospers in a "feel-good society" where anything goes. Self appreciation works better.

    Governor Palin reaping what she has sown? No, she announced it. The press and the left did the damage. Have you seen the US magazine front page? Have you read the articles? For me, yes on the first and a bit on the 2nd. The editor allowed the publishing of rumor that was not verified and in some instances, out right false - he even admitted as such in a Fox interview. In addition, we as citizens did our thing, often inappropriately. Did you also see the front with the Obama's on it? Very pointed, very one-sided. Very bad journalism. Shocking teen pregnancies? Presented as trash. Visit the web site and look at the people it does push forward as role models. Going further, the left itself is very hypocritical in this matter. Just words, just speeches.

    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Preaching abstinence only sex ed to your own child is gross neglect. Forcing that puritanical view on the entire nation is criminal.

    Gov. Palin is reaping what she has sown. The fact that she thrust her families (dysfunctional) private life in to the national spotlight is sad. What a gal?!?!
  4. #64  
    Please define those religious fantasies. More like personal responsibility. We need to teach moral responsibility, not make it easier for them to side-step the issue. Condoms in school? Bubba, that just is asking for trouble. Where's the condom...gosh...forget the condom!

    Pathetic? Get of it. Reality is that teens do on occasion have sex and reality is that installing and backing up personal responsibility to our children does work. Did your parents attempt to teach you right from wrong, the need to be responsible? I am sure they did. A feel-good society falls upon itself.

    Sex education is taught in many schools and one would think it works. However, it does not - there is nothing to support that it does. Why continue to support something that frankly has failed.


    Quote Originally Posted by redshifted View Post
    As the parent of a teen I find many folks of Palin's ilk attempting to foist their religious fantasies on everyone to be pathetic. The reality is that teens have sex. Get over it folks.

    I had sex education in the 70s and I didn't become a sex-crazed teen. Neither did my wife. I'm a happily monogamous father of two and I don't appreciate folks like Palin spreading their religious fantasies in public schools.

    Kids in school today need tools to cope with modern realities - not attempts to turn back the clock to some imaginary halcyon past. Sex Ed should include info on contraception, STDs and respect for partners and themselves. Anything less short-changes our kids.

    I would be impressed by Palin if she were to publicly admit that abstinence only fails some kids (as does contrapception) and that Sex Ed should be expanded to address today's realities.
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Which you know was intended as a comparison between Clinton and Palin. Of course never mind the pathetic almost admitted response from Clinton on his affair as opposed to McCain.
    So how pathetic was it of McCain to make jokes about "why is Chelsea so ugly..." when she was a teenager??


    Awww, that's so cute of you. Calling not having sex until you're married a "religious fantasy" . . . as opposed to, I don't know . . . a worthy goal for kids to strive for.
    As a parent, I don't think abstinence is a worthy goal to strive for (let alone an achievable one for most kids). Relationships fare better when both parties understand what they are getting into...perhaps that means I don't value faith too highly!
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  6. #66  
    Ummm... Research is pretty clear that sex education classes have proven effective, while abstinence-only approaches don't. States that have instituted a coordinated series of sex ed classes have had a drop in teen pregnancies, while states such as Texas, who do not, have not seen this drop.

    The More You Know.....
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    So how pathetic was it of McCain to make jokes about "why is Chelsea so ugly..." when she was a teenager??


    Okay, well she was . . . never the less I get your point. Don’t mistake some defense of McCain as unfettered support. Like I’ve said before, I am voting for McCain, but begrudgingly so—and Sarah Palin doesn’t change that. In fact, I’d almost rather Palin as POTUS over McCain (still chewing on that idea).

    As a parent, I don't think abstinence is a worthy goal to strive for (let alone an achievable one for most kids). Relationships fare better when both parties understand what they are getting into...perhaps that means I don't value faith too highly!


    Fair enough; it boils down to you and I simply disagreeing on the merit of abstinence as opposed to blindly labeling it some “religious fantasy.” Personally, I favor the teaching of abstinence as a matter of principle regarding expectations. Abstinence sets a certain level of expectation upon people, one they would otherwise have no need to meet should it not be there.

    Secondly, I’m not convinced that sex-education is really a suitable solution. Sure one may find studies supporting a positive result from such classes; however, it’s what we deem as “results” that I remain skeptical of. For me, this is equal to treating the symptom of a problem and not the problem itself.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Just words, just speeches.
    George W. Bush was too limited even for proper English and speeches, so whoever will win, there will be progress...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. tirk's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Fair enough; it boils down to you and I simply disagreeing on the merit of abstinence as opposed to blindly labeling it some “religious fantasy.”
    Let me make myself clear then; abstinence is, largely, a "religious fantasy". Like creationism, no one else thinks it's got a lot going for it as a practical policy. It's a flat-earth idea, with no supporting evidence. What's worse, it leads to unwanted pregnancies and actively damages children. "War on premarital/teenage sex" (which it effectively is) is as mad as "war on drugs" or "war on terror".
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk
    Let me make myself clear then; abstinence is, largely, a "religious fantasy". Like creationism, no one else thinks it's got a lot going for it as a practical policy. It's a flat-earth idea, with no supporting evidence. What's worse, it leads to unwanted pregnancies and actively damages children. "War on premarital/teenage sex" (which it effectively is) is as mad as "war on drugs" or "war on terror".


    Well, in response I amend my previous comments and apparently you do just blindly label it as some religious fantasy. Creationism isn’t a concept that people actively practice, abstinence is (or can be)—which is why your analogy is quite futile, humorous and indicative of your unwillingness to engage in thoughtful attitudes toward abstinence.

    Abstinence has never led to an unwanted pregnancy, it has never damaged one person and as a kicker, it never has led to one single STD. In case you meant abstinence-only education (which I believe you did), you would still be wrong. Failure to grasp a problem at its root is where most people—including you—go wrong. Pregnancy (wanted or otherwise), STDs, emotional woes and other such things are a result of people engaging in sexual activity (Note: sex education at best reduces probabilities, it doesn’t eliminate them for those engaging in sex).

    Let me repeat that to be explicitly clear:

    The root of the aforementioned problems is youth choosing to have sex.

    Additionally, determining the worthiness of behavior based on the efficacy of teaching methods, as evidence by the produced results is a very sad and juvenile attitude. If such an attitude were applied to other areas of life people, such as you, would most likely and rightfully scoff with contempt.

    New York District 7 school district has the worst graduation rate in the country at 24.5%. Yet, no one—NOT ONE PERSON—would ever suggest education in that district as futile. No one would repeat nonsensical mantras like, “Well kids just aren’t going to learn anyway.” No, we insist that students not only attend school, but they graduate as well. We do so because we don’t evaluate the worthiness of education by how receptive youth are to the idea—we don’t care, we want them educated, period.

    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  11. #71  
    And then there are many of us who do not think that it is a religious fantasy in the least. Many of us believe it is a matter of moral responsibility to teach our children values, values that will help them in life. You speak of unwanted pregnancies - they happen on both sides of the issue - so why not take the time to talk to the children about abstinence, its value and their responsibilities along with "sex" education. That is what my wife and I have done. At that point, the child has a background capable of helping the child make the proper decision.

    A feel good society ends up falling on its face.

    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Let me make myself clear then; abstinence is, largely, a "religious fantasy". Like creationism, no one else thinks it's got a lot going for it as a practical policy. It's a flat-earth idea, with no supporting evidence. What's worse, it leads to unwanted pregnancies and actively damages children. "War on premarital/teenage sex" (which it effectively is) is as mad as "war on drugs" or "war on terror".
  12. #72  
    Progress to the uh word used every other time. That is real progress. Bubba, at least he stands straight on the line, Obama changes course when his backers bite his feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    George W. Bush was too limited even for proper English and speeches, so whoever will win, there will be progress...
  13. #73  
    D.L. - we see you too do not subscribe to the "feel good" society being pushed as the ONLY MEANS OF by our "liberal" friends. To think a parent would not take the time or interest to work on family and personal values, instead looking to the school system for guidance in what is largely a family issue. Parental responsibility to teach, to guide, to act as an example thrown out the window just 'cause it feels good to do whatever the child wants to do. Really - how stinking ridiculous and unbelievable.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Let me make myself clear then; abstinence is, largely, a "religious fantasy". Like creationism, no one else thinks it's got a lot going for it as a practical policy. It's a flat-earth idea, with no supporting evidence. What's worse, it leads to unwanted pregnancies and actively damages children. "War on premarital/teenage sex" (which it effectively is) is as mad as "war on drugs" or "war on terror".
    Bingo... the "other side" can live in their delusional box all they want...
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Many of us believe it is a matter of moral responsibility to teach our children values, values that will help them in life.
    And because I don't think "just say no" works I don't??
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  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    You speak of unwanted pregnancies - they happen on both sides of the issue - so why not take the time to talk to the children about abstinence, its value and their responsibilities along with "sex" education. That is what my wife and I have done. At that point, the child has a background capable of helping the child make the proper decision.
    I actually agree with you in principle. However, the reality is that, because kids make inappropriate decisions, they aren't equipped to deal with options if their hormones get the best of them.

    The data is clear that, while pregnancies happen with either approach, they are more prevalent with an abstinance approach then a comprehensive sex ed approach.

    It the goal is to minimize pregnancy, then the option is clear.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    George W. Bush was too limited even for proper English and speeches, so whoever will win, there will be progress...
    Brilliant!
    McCain, I think, has been desperate to win at all costs since he lost the battle with Bush back in primaries of 2000.
  18.    #78  
    McShame's wife Cindy is a significant part of who he is, how he got into politics, and the image of "americanness" that their campaign pushes in contrast to Obama's.

    The position of First Lady is itself not unimportant -- and its relevant as a window in appreciating and gaining insight into the character of a man who wants to lead this country. She is the woman he abandoned his older disabled wife for.

    The NYTimes has published a lengthy, and not very sympathetic portrait of her.

    As much as I hope and expect that she won't become First Lady, unfairly or not -- this information is germane.

    (my abridgement distills what can only be said is a fairly harsh view of her).


    Behind McCain, Outsider in Capital Wanting Back In
    By JODI KANTOR and DAVID M. HALBFINGER

    Cindy McCain was new to Washington and not yet 30 when she arrived at a luncheon for Congressional spouses to discover a problem with her name tag.

    It read “Carol McCain.” That was the well-liked wife John McCain had left to marry Cindy, to the disapproval of many in Washington.

    Fearing that the slight was intentional, she slinked to a half-empty table that never filled. “No one wanted to sit at her table,“ said Barbara Ross, a friend who was not surprised when Mrs. McCain announced a few months later that she was moving back to Arizona. “It was like high school.”...

    ...She has done relatively few solo events, grants interviews reluctantly— she declined to speak for this article — and in introducing her husband at events, she offers few of the heartwarming anecdotes that are the stock in trade of the political spouse...

    ... for the last two decades they have mostly lived apart, she in Arizona, he in Washington. She initially seemed like an ideal political partner, giving Mr. McCain a home state, money and contacts that jump-started his career. But as the years passed, she also became a liability at times. She played a role in the Keating Five savings-and-loan scandal, and just as her husband was rehabilitating his reputation, she was caught stealing drugs from her nonprofit organization to feed her addiction to painkillers. She has a fortune that sets the McCains apart from most other Americans, a problem in a presidential race that hinges on economic anxieties. She can be imprecise: she has repeatedly called herself an only child, for instance, even though she has two half-siblings, and has provided varying details about a 1994 mercy mission to Rwanda...

    Some of Mr. McCain’s Washington friends say they have barely met Mrs. McCain, while fellow mothers at their children’s schools say they have little sense of her husband. The two often relax in separate places: Mr. McCain prefers the family’s ranch in the Arizona desert, while Mrs. McCain’s refuge is a high-rise condominium on the Pacific...

    Mrs. McCain was 28, nearly two decades younger than her husband and just five years older than his eldest-son. “Cindy was a little bit star struck by John’s fame and the strength of his personality,” ...

    Carol McCain [McCain's first wife] was still a presence on the social scene, working in the Reagan White House and as an events planner. Everyone knew her story: she had stood by her husband during his captivity in North Vietnam, never passing word of a debilitating car accident, only to discover, a few years after their reunion, that he was leaving her for a younger, richer woman.

    Rejected by the clubby Congressional wives, Cindy McCain tried to befriend her husband’s aides.

    “She seemed lonely,” said Lisa Boepple, a former chief of staff. But “she was John’s wife, so we didn’t really want to hang around with her.”

    Mrs. McCain announced she was returning to Phoenix to start a family, but friends detected other reasons...

    Ever since, the McCains have led only partly overlapping lives, with Mr. McCain — who was first elected to the Senate in 1986 — spending the week in Washington...

    Scandal and an Addiction

    Whatever humiliation Mrs. McCain suffered in her first Washington foray, her trips there in 1989, for weeks of Senate hearings on the savings-and-loan scandal, were worse...

    Her husband was accused of improperly intervening on behalf of a donor, Charles Keating, whose failed savings and loan had cost taxpayers billions. Four other senators were implicated, and one Senate spouse: Mrs. McCain. She and her father had invested in a shopping center with Mr. Keating, and while Mr. McCain insisted that he had reimbursed Mr. Keating for vacations their families had taken together in the Bahamas, he said his wife, the family bookkeeper, could not find the receipts.

    Mrs. McCain busied herself with the American Voluntary Medical Team, a charity she founded to supply medical equipment and expertise to some of the neediest places on earth...

    In 1994, Mrs. McCain dissolved the charity after admitting that she had been addicted to painkillers for years and had stolen prescription drugs from it. She had used the drugs, first given for back pain, to numb herself during the Keating Five investigation, she confessed to Newsweek magazine. “The newspaper articles didn’t hurt as much, and I didn’t hurt as much,“ she wrote in an essay. “The pills made me feel euphoric and free.”

    The scandal broke just as her husband had been trying to rehabilitate his reputation. He had no idea his wife had been an addict, he told the press...

    ...She rarely campaigns away from her husband’s side, and yet their interactions on the trail often appear brief and formal. During the rolling primary-season seminars that Mr. McCain held in the back of his bus, Mrs. McCain sat up front. Once in a while, she joined him, sitting very straight, smiling and saying little...

    In speaking about each other, the McCains use standard lines: she praises his experience, he tells the crowd that she should really be the candidate. Meghan McCain, their daughter, performs the image-softening role spouses usually perform for each other...

    In interviews, some of Mrs. McCain’s statements seem questionable. She often tells of how she moved to California, leaving her children behind, for four months in 2004 to recover from a stroke that left her unable to walk or speak. But news reports from the time indicate she had few discernible impediments. She gave interviews four days afterward, attended a baseball game with her husband and a reporter several weeks later, and spoke at a Tempe, Ariz., Chamber of Commerce event. “One month out, I feel wonderful,” she told the audience. The McCain campaign declined to resolve the discrepancy.

    Similarly, Mrs. McCain often mentions her travels to Rwanda at the height of the 1994 genocide — she wrote about it in a recent Wall Street Journal opinion piece and has been praised by politicians and newspaper columnists for jetting into the heart of a massacre. As with her other charity trips, participants praised her eagerness to help victims of tragedy. But news accounts and interviews indicate, and a campaign spokesman confirmed, that Mrs. McCain traveled after the genocide had ended, spending time with refugees in neighboring Zaire, now Congo. Asked if she was ever in Rwanda, as Mrs. McCain has stated many times, a campaign spokesman, Jill Hazelbaker, said “she was driven to the Zaire/Rwanda border in order to assess the conditions of the refugees entering the country.”...

    ... Some note she has invested for decades in his career and now sees the ultimate prize in reach; others say she wants approval, from either her husband or the public...

    If Mr. McCain wins, she would have to return to the town she says she dislikes, attending the same sorts of luncheons she once fled from. But this time — maybe at the annual event that Congressional wives have for the first lady — the women of Washington, including a few who shunned her the first time around, would have to applaud in Mrs. McCain’s honor...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/18/2008 at 11:24 AM.
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  19. #79  
    I really thought your post was going to be something newsworthy. At least there is nothing in her past like "for the first time in my adult life" = http://www.breitbart.tv/html/49244.html

    It is rather interesting that links to her first remark, "For the first time in my life" have been removed. Remember, she made similar statements twice. Regardless, this is a person who has a track record by her own admission of not being proud of her country.
  20. #80  
    Ok. Where in the past of Cindy has something like the very widely acknowledged statements of Michelle been brought to light?
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