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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    And the bad thing is, few of us have perfect families. Few of us have children that are perfect. Few of us are perfect. We damn these people, though they are normal in every aspect. The left damns them when they do not damn themselves for the same actions. We need to look at Obama and his past - was it so different? His parents? His raising?
    Are you really advocating that Obama be blamed for the circumstances of his birth?

    In case you didn't notice, Obama came out strongly in support of the Palin family, and stated that families are off limits.
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/03/2008 at 10:40 AM.
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    #42  
    So what's the next revelation going to be?
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  3. #43  
    Where do I say or advocate the blaming of Obama for his birth? I do not. What is stated is that we blame Palin and say nothing about Obama's birth situation. What Obama says and what is done by his supporters is often totally different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Are you really advocating that Obama be blamed for the circumstances of his birth?

    In case you didn't notice, Obama came out strongly in support of the Palin family, and stated that families are off limits.
  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Where do I say or advocate the blaming of Obama for his birth? I do not. What is stated is that we blame Palin and say nothing about Obama's birth situation. What Obama says and what is done by his supporters is often totally different.
    Ben -- Obama's not responsible for his own "birth situation"

    But Palin is responsible for the care and guidance given to her daughter -- and by proxy for the decisions that minor daughter has made.

    It reflects on Palin -- it provides us a window through which we can understand, evaluate, and judge her (which ostensibly was what this thread is all about...)
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Where do I say or advocate the blaming of Obama for his birth? I do not. What is stated is that we blame Palin and say nothing about Obama's birth situation. What Obama says and what is done by his supporters is often totally different.
    Obama immediately himself pointed to his own mom's age.

    Also supporters is a very broad term.
    1) You have the principals. Like Obama, McCain, etc.
    2) You have people answerable to them as employees of campaigns.
    3) you have people under contract to state parties etc.
    4) you have activists, and others not answerable and not nessessarily sharing either the campaign views on how to draw distinctions or much with the candiate at all, but simply in oppositon to the other candidate.
    5) you have bloggers, authors etc who are simply trying to make a name for themselves.

    Only #1 and #2 are accountable to a campaign.

    Look. some of the criticism of Palin is unfair, but all of it isn't. Adn the fact that she is an unknown quantity is no small matter. if you work in politics you know what happens when a unknown gets elevated like this. They have not been under heavy scrutiny like others in the process.

    We actually may never, from this point until the election, see Palin actually speak for herself. There is a good chance everything is going to be scripted.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    But Palin is responsible for the care and guidance given to her daughter -- and by proxy for the decisions that minor daughter has made.
    If you have ever had kids this age I would not take this too far. I would stop at mass murder. Teen pregnancy as the parents fault is something most people who have seen it would disagree with.
  7. #47  
    Is it a verifiable fact that Bristol was out for eight months due to "mano" about the same time her mother was "pregnant" with her fifth child Trig? I ask not to pry further into a minor's private affairs, but to ascertain if Gov. Palin is a liar (yet again). Their story sounds a little fishy.
  8. #48  
    In today's world with the way schools are now with the lack of discipline compared to when I was in school back in the 50s and 60s, it really is a different world. You cannot hold the parents liable for anything other than the morality issue - children are born with brains and develop relationships with people who develop relationships with other people and short of never letting the child out of sight, you have zero control other than the constant teaching of morality. One slip up may have consequences that last for a long, long time. If you are a parent, you know........take the politics out of it.
  9. #49  
    What do the families of Presidential aspirants tell us??

    They tell us about ourselves and how much gossip we are not only willing to accept, but also justify, when it comes to politicians.

    And we sneer at the behavior of politicians . . .

    Regarding Bristol and her pregnancy, so what? I did many things my mother would disapprove of—many things that she explicitly taught me not to do. A youth (specifically one almost at adult age) being contrary to their parent’s wishes, beliefs or rules is hardly the mark of a bad parent—let alone a bad leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAYRE
    It reflects on Palin -- it provides us a window through which we can understand, evaluate, and judge her (which ostensibly was what this thread is all about...)


    Bristol was born in October of 1990 and given she is five months pregnant (as of September) that puts her at having become pregnant roughly six months before her 18th birthday.

    Wow, just wow Barye. A young girl is six months from holding not only the legal, but social age of responsibility for their actions and you insist that her decision bears such a heavy reflection on her mother.

    This is why some don’t get it—they are simply too busy making excuses for why the responsibility can be shifted (coincidentally it always seems to shift toward those that are being opposed). At 17 ˝ a person is not yet considered an adult; however, that doesn’t mean we are to wait until the exact day of their 18th birthday to decide to finally vest responsibility into their hands—that is merely a recipe for disaster.

    At some point, we must recognize that by the age of 17 ˝, we are quite likely to start seeing people make decisions as if they were adults, because they are mere months away. Furthermore, we must also recognize that as parents gradually loosen the reigns (so to speak) on their adult-bound children that we as society need to equally loose the reigns of responsibility on parents.

    It is simply a matter of consistency.
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  10. #50  
    Ben,

    Is it possible that more comprehensive sex ed could have helped Palen's daughter avoid this "mistake"? The irony here is unavoidable.

    On another note: I am sorry to hear about your wife's illness. I hope she is doing ok, considering....
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    And we sneer at the behavior of politicians . . .

    Regarding Bristol and her pregnancy, so what? I did many things my mother would disapprove of—many things that she explicitly taught me not to do. A youth (specifically one almost at adult age) being contrary to their parent’s wishes, beliefs or rules is hardly the mark of a bad parent—let alone a bad leader.
    Preaching abstinence only sex ed to your own child is gross neglect. Forcing that puritanical view on the entire nation is criminal.

    Gov. Palin is reaping what she has sown. The fact that she thrust her families (dysfunctional) private life in to the national spotlight is sad. What a gal?!?!
  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    They tell us about ourselves and how much gossip we are not only willing to accept, but also justify, when it comes to politicians.
    just have time for a brief response DL --but the window I describe is most illuminating when it allows us to see into the reality of those who pose as our "moral" and "ethical" betters.

    An evangelical christian who has for her whole career sought to legislatively impose impose HER morality on others -- then their life, their hypocrisy is absolutely germane.

    (there's some irony that's no doubt lost on conservatives, that the President who least tried to pose as a paragon of personal virtue, who least tried to impose his morality on others -- has shown by his extraordinary child -- what real family values are all about.

    Chelsea Clinton was not be arrested for public underage drunkenness, Chelsea Clinton did not become a prego teen...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/03/2008 at 03:01 PM.
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  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Preaching abstinence only sex ed to your own child is gross neglect. Forcing that puritanical view on the entire nation is criminal.

    Gov. Palin is reaping what she has sown. ...!
    yup ...
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  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Preaching abstinence only sex ed to your own child is gross neglect.
    According to what standard? And how many people agreed to this standard as being a sufficient one?

    I know I didn't. Sounds more like your views which seem to be quite acceptable for the nation and families.

    Forcing that puritanical view on the entire nation is criminal.


    Forcing? Wow, so then if she instead favored sex education I may call it "forcing" that view upon people? Are you willing to at least be consistent with this?

    Gov. Palin is reaping what she has sown. The fact that she thrust her families (dysfunctional) private life in to the national spotlight is sad. What a gal?!?!
    And how did she thrust her private life in the national spotlight? By accepting the nomination from McCain? Or maybe by introducing her family to the nation?

    Wait, I know. She held a press conference where she individually introduced her family one-by-one as beaming examples for us to model. Too bad I missed that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAYRE
    just have time for a brief response DL --but the window I describe is most illuminating when it allows us to see into the reality of those who pose as our "moral" and "ethical" betters.
    Please do show where she, posed as our better.

    (there's some irony that's no doubt lost on conservatives, that the President who least tried to pose as a paragon of personal virtue, wh least tried to impose his morality on others --has shown by his extraordinary child -- what real family values are all about.
    Hmmm since you brought it up . . .

    You are comparing the concept of a "paragon of PERSONAL" virtue of two people by using the following examples:

    1 - A person who personally committed adultry

    2 - A person whose child became pregnant and drunk underage through her own volition (unless of course you can show where mom intently & willfully helped these things happen).


    I see your understanding of PERSONAL virtue is one we should all strive to have.
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    You are comparing the concept of a "paragon of PERSONAL" virtue of two people by using the following examples:

    1 - A person who personally committed adultry

    2 - A person whose child became pregnant and drunk underage through her own volition (unless of course you can show where mom intently & willfully helped these things happen).
    #1 was McCain....

    #2 McCain's VP

    What a pair...

    No wonder McCain called her his "soul mate."
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    What a pair...

    No wonder McCain called her his "soul mate."
    Yep & they way those two are being dressed up at the RNC is awe inspiring. Soulmates indeed.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Is it a verifiable fact that Bristol was out for eight months due to "mano" about the same time her mother was "pregnant" with her fifth child Trig? I ask not to pry further into a minor's private affairs, but to ascertain if Gov. Palin is a liar (yet again). Their story sounds a little fishy.
    I assume you mean 'mono' as in mononucleosis? FWIW, Trig being the Gov.'s child would not be at all surprising. The Down's Syndrome would be the reason. The incidence of Down's Syndrome is _drastically_ higher among parents over the age of 40.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #58  
    As the parent of a teen I find many folks of Palin's ilk attempting to foist their religious fantasies on everyone to be pathetic. The reality is that teens have sex. Get over it folks.

    I had sex education in the 70s and I didn't become a sex-crazed teen. Neither did my wife. I'm a happily monogamous father of two and I don't appreciate folks like Palin spreading their religious fantasies in public schools.

    Kids in school today need tools to cope with modern realities - not attempts to turn back the clock to some imaginary halcyon past. Sex Ed should include info on contraception, STDs and respect for partners and themselves. Anything less short-changes our kids.

    I would be impressed by Palin if she were to publicly admit that abstinence only fails some kids (as does contrapception) and that Sex Ed should be expanded to address today's realities.
  19. #59  
    ^Ditto. I'll never forget how uncomfortable our PE teacher looked at the head of the class teaching us about the birds & bees.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by redshifted View Post
    As the parent of a teen I find many folks of Palin's ilk attempting to foist their religious fantasies on everyone to be pathetic. The reality is that teens have sex. Get over it folks.

    I had sex education in the 70s and I didn't become a sex-crazed teen. Neither did my wife. I'm a happily monogamous father of two and I don't appreciate folks like Palin spreading their religious fantasies in public schools.

    Kids in school today need tools to cope with modern realities - not attempts to turn back the clock to some imaginary halcyon past. Sex Ed should include info on contraception, STDs and respect for partners and themselves. Anything less short-changes our kids.

    I would be impressed by Palin if she were to publicly admit that abstinence only fails some kids (as does contrapception) and that Sex Ed should be expanded to address today's realities.
    Quite frankly, I'm more concerned with her support of teaching Intelligent Design in science classes.
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