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  1. #1421  
    Originally posted by clulup

    Toby indeed is the ultimate Master of the Quote Button..... (in the "vBvBvB $Code$&$quot$; $section$ $above$ $the$ $field$ $you$ $type$ $your$ $reply$ $in$). $His$ $dissection$ $of$ $text$/$arguments$ $makes$ $me$ $smile$ $when$ $he$ $is$ $on$ $my$ $side$, $but$ $gets$ $on$ $my$ $nerves$ $when$ $he$ $isn$'$t$
    All your quote button are belong to us!
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  2. #1422  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    All
    You
    your
    have
    quote
    no
    button
    chance to
    are
    survive
    belong
    make
    to
    your
    us!
    TobyParse!
  3. #1423  
    Originally posted by septimus

    You
    Somebody
    Originally posted by septimus
    have
    set
    Originally posted by septimus
    no
    us
    Originally posted by septimus
    chance to
    up
    Originally posted by septimus
    survive
    the
    Originally posted by septimus
    make
    bomb!
    Originally posted by septimus
    your
    Shield
    Originally posted by septimus
    TobyParse!
    up!
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  4. #1424  
    Cool, I get a chance to update everybody on my wife's well being and refute the whole "God is dead (or was never here in the first place) business".

    First off, for those of you who don't know, my wife was diagnosed with three different cancers in her left breast last year.

    First Diagnosis (this was the lumpectomy)
    Case # S03-13781

    1. LEFT NIPPLE BIOPSY:
    Nuclear grade 3 duct carcinoma in-situ involving large duct of nipple (first cancer) and associated Paget's disease (second cancer) present.

    2. LEFT BREAST MASS:
    Infiltrating duct carcinoma, grade 3 (tubule formation 3/3, nuclear pleomorphism 3/3, mitotic activity 3/3), 1.9 cm. Lymphatic space invasion present.
    Tumor extends close, less than 1 mm, to medial margin, probably within lymphatics.
    Nuclear grade 3 duct carcinoma in-situ with solid patterning, comedo necrosis and associated microcalcification.
    DCIS (thats the first listed cancer) extends close, less than 1 mm, to the superior margin.
    No extensive insitu component identified.
    ER/PRPRPR $and$ $Her$-$2$/$neu$ $requested$.

    Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD
    Document reviewed and electronically signed by LAE

    Based on this report, a masectomy was advised, with no other option. They had removed the 1.9 mm aggressive tumor, but had no clear margin around it and the associated Paget's (a type of cancer that attacks the nipple) made them very nervous. There is no known cure for Paget's except radical surgery (complete removal through surgery).
    We repeatedly pushed them on this, asking if anyone had ever reported any kind of spontaneous healing, or reversal, of this kind of cancer. They (the doctors and nurses) said no. Our own research also made us believe there was no medical option but surgery (with following chemo, non-hormone responsive).
    We prayed, had our friends pray, had our church pray, asked our aquaintances to pray, had strangers pray, and even had friends have their friends pray for Elizabeths' complete recovery.

    The day of the surgery she had second thoughts., but decided to go through with it because the scarring on her nipple made us believe she still had the Paget's (after all, no one had ever been cured of it).


    This is the biopsy of the tissue they removed from her (basically her entire left breast).

    Second Diagnosis:
    Case # S04-982

    BREAST, LEFT, MASECTOMY:
    Foci of residual nuclear grade 3 ductal carcinoma in-situ, involving the nipple. (basically the first cancer listed on the first pathology report was receeding by itself to a barely observable level)
    No residual infiltrating ductal carcinoma present. (which was expected as they had removed the tumor during the lumpectomy)
    Inked deep resection margin negative for tumor.
    Negative skin. ( Where's the Paget's?)
    Eight axillary lymph nodes negative for tumor (0/8)

    Beiqing Liu, MD
    Document reviewed and electronically signed by BL

    Because they can't explain how the cancer disappeared, they recommended that she go through chemo anyway.

    We laughed and said we'd think about it.

    (all of this was experienced at St. Peter's Hospital in Albany, NY, an excellent world-class facility that we would recommend to anyone)


    Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:

    1. UFO experimentation
    2. Mass hypnosis
    3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians)
    4. Unknown as of yet, but rationally explained scientific fact
    5. Good vibes
    6. Good luck (quick, buy a Lotto ticket honey!)
    7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.

    The Truth is out there!

    And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.

    Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.

    Why not?
    Last edited by BobbyMike; 02/16/2004 at 10:08 AM.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  5. #1425  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    [...] (all of this was experienced at St. Peter's Hospital in Albany, NY, an excellent world-class facility that we would recommend to anyone)
    Based on your experience, I wouldn't take your recommendation.
    Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:

    1. UFO experimentation
    That would be an unusual one.
    2. Mass hypnosis
    No evidence of this.
    3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians)
    Actually, it wouldn't take gross incompetence at all. More easy to believe a lab error or mixup. Have you ever seen the number of mistaken or mixed up charges from the average hospital billing department? Why would you think their labs are any more organized?
    4. Unknown as of yet, but rationally explained scientific fact
    Plausible, but lab error seems much more likely.
    5. Good vibes
    A bit New Age-ish, but the power of a positve mind-set can be impressive.
    6. Good luck (quick, buy a Lotto ticket honey!)
    Can't hurt. Why not?
    7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.
    Who didn't seem to grant the doctors the sense to do another biopsy _before_ amputation. What a wasteful God.
    The Truth is out there!
    Could be.
    And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
    Well, I'm glad to hear of the recovery at least.
    Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.
    Let me know if that happens and I might change my outlook.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #1426  
    This wasn't my original post. still working on it.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  7. #1427  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Cool, I get a chance to update everybody on my wife's well being and refute the whole "God is dead (or was never here in the first place) business".

    First off, for those of you who don't know, my wife was diagnosed with three different cancers in her left breast last year.And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.

    Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.

    Why not?
    I am really glad to hear that things went well (given the circumstances). You believe that the prayers caused some of the cancer to disappear, and that this was through an action of God.

    However, I don't think it is a good idea that you act against the recommendation of the doctors regarding chemotherapy. If you don't trust these doctors, then go to other MDs and get a second (or third) opinion. I am not an expert in that field, but neither are you.

    What if your wife dies of metastases which could have been prevented by chemo? Would you not feel guilty or bad about that? You may argue that if it goes bad, then it was the will of God. But why did you take action at all? Could it not be the will of God that you follow the recommendation of the doctors? Why take chances?
  8. #1428  
    Originally posted by clulup
    I am really glad to hear that things went well (given the circumstances). You believe that the prayers caused some of the cancer to disappear, and that this was through an action of God.

    However, I don't think it is a good idea that you act against the recommendation of the doctors regarding chemotherapy. If you don't trust these doctors, then go to other MDs and get a second (or third) opinion. I am not an expert in that field, but neither are you.

    What if your wife dies of metastases which could have been prevented by chemo? Would you not feel guilty or bad about that? You may argue that if it goes bad, then it was the will of God. But why did you take action at all? Could it not be the will of God that you follow the recommendation of the doctors? Why take chances?
    Well let's see. According to oncologist:

    20% chance of recurrance with chemo.
    50% chance of early menopause being triggered because of chemo.
    Chance of liver, heart, lung damage because of chemo.
    Chance of leukemia because of chemo.

    vs.

    30% chance of recurrance without chemo.

    These statistics are for people who had Paget's disease. Which she doesn't have anymore.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  9. #1429  
    BobbyMike,

    Glad to hear your wife is doing ok. At least I think that is what you said in your post. I do of course have to take issue with a couple of your statements. And I have a few questions. In my line of work I deal with many cancer patients, so that where some of this comes from.

    I noticed no where in your post did you mention an opinion by another doctor or facility. So I can assume you trust Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD and Beiqing Liu, MD completely in his determination that your wife needed one of her breats cut off. A second opinion is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. As Tony alluded to, many times chart are switched or other lab errors occur. A second opinion is sometimes the only way these mistakes are caught. I mean a second opinion from another facility altogether not just another dr at the same place.

    In classic Toby style:
    We prayed, had our friends pray, had our church pray, asked our aquaintances to pray, had strangers pray, and even had friends have their friends pray for Elizabeths' complete recovery.
    The day of the surgery she had second thoughts., but decided to go through with it because the scarring on her nipple made us believe she still had the Paget's (after all, no one had ever been cured of it).
    Kinda seems like you didn't have much faith in your own prayers. On one hand you trust god to cure her, but on the other you trust surgeons just in case.

    Because they can't explain how the cancer disappeared, they recommended that she go through chemo anyway.
    Happens alot with cancer. It can appear to be gone in one instance and return with a vengeance at any given time. They were trying to be sure.

    We laughed and said we'd think about it.
    Why because chemo is funny or because you dont trust them now or because you think praying did something and you now don't need treatment cause God has now acknowledged your need and stepped up to help you?

    Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:
    3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians).
    No way it could be this one cause world class drs dont make mistakes. (Did you hit your head? Everyone makes mistakes. World Class Drs are no exception. Dont be naive.)

    7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.
    Why the hell are you special? Why do you get God's help and other people dont? So I guess that you are better than many of the other people who pray for help with a disease and end up dying because God didn't answer their prayers? I'd like an explanation as to why your prayers were answered (at least in your mind) and why someone elses weren't?

    And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
    You shouldnt be angry, they gave you the choice of treatment or not. How did you get Jesus' blood in the OR? I doubt there is a hospital in the country that would allow any blood in an OR that was certified by the hospital. When did Jesus get his HIV test? He would have had to have one to donate blood for your operation. And if you didnt need the drs because of God's intervention, why did you let them go ahead with the surgery? Just in case? Cause maybe you werent so confident in the power of prayer?

    It's easy to say prayer helped after the fact. It's always easy to use God after the fact. Cure = God helped. No cure = God's will.

    My main point is of course why does God care one wit more about you than any other person. Why did your wife get 'miraculously' cured and millions of others didn't? I think it's incredibly arrogant to assume you are more worthy of God's intervention than anyone else. But in my experience with Christians of many flavors that's the norm.

    You remind me of that moron Kurt Warner after the Rams 1st SuperBowl with him as QB. "thank you Jesus, we owe it all to Jesus". Jesus doesn't give a damn who wins a football game.

    Why does he care about your wife more than any other?


    Again, glad your wife is still with us. I wouldn't hold my breath on the breast regrow thing. Be thankful for what you got and don't be greedy.


    Woof
    Last edited by Woof; 02/16/2004 at 01:26 PM.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10. #1430  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Based on your experience, I wouldn't take your recommendation.
    Actually the surgery went great and as advertised. the care was excellent too. they have one of the best recovery rates in the NE.

    Originally posted by Toby That would be an unusual one.
    yep

    Originally posted by Toby No evidence of this.
    yep

    Originally posted by Toby Actually, it wouldn't take gross incompetence at all. More easy to believe a lab error or mixup. Have you ever seen the number of mistaken or mixed up charges from the average hospital billing department? Why would you think their labs are any more organized?
    We did our research. The lab results are double checked and verified.

    Originally posted by Toby Plausible, but lab error seems much more likely.
    see above.

    Originally posted by Toby A bit New Age-ish, but the power of a positve mind-set can be impressive.
    yep

    Originally posted by Toby Can't hurt. Why not?
    waste of money for the vast majority
    Originally posted by Toby Who didn't seem to grant the doctors the sense to do another biopsy _before_ amputation. What a wasteful God.
    The biopsy after the lumpectomy was the confirming biopsy. They knew she had the aggressive lump and the Paget's. Do a google on Paget's if you wish.

    Originally posted by Toby Could be.
    ? You and I may not recognize it, but it's there oh skeptical one.

    Originally posted by Toby Well, I'm glad to hear of the recovery at least.
    So are we!
    Originally posted by Toby Let me know if that happens and I might change my outlook.
    Might? Maybe I should start praying for you to grow a breast. Would you believe then
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  11. #1431  
    Originally posted by Woof
    BobbyMike,

    Glad to hear your wife is doing ok. At least I think that is what you said in your post. I do of course have to take issue with a couple of your statements. And I have a few questions. In my line of work I deal with many cancer patients, so that where some of this comes from.

    I noticed no where in your post did you mention an opinion by another doctor or facility. So I can assume you trust Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD and Beiqing Liu, MD completely in his determination that your wife needed one of her breats cut off. A second opinion is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. As Tony alluded to, many times chart are switched or other lab errors occur. A second opinion is sometimes the only way these mistakes are caught. I mean a second opinion from another facility altogether not just another dr at the same place.

    In classic Toby style:


    Kinda seems like you didn't have much faith in your own prayers. On one hand you trust god to cure her, but on the other you trust surgeons just in case.



    Happens alot with cancer. It can appear to be gone in one instance and return with a vengeance at any given time. They were trying to be sure.



    Why because chemo is funny or because you dont trust them now or because you think praying did something and you now don't need treatment cause God has now acknowledged your need and stepped up to help you?



    No way it could be this one cause world class drs dont make mistakes. (Did you hit your head? Everyone makes mistakes. World Class Drs are no exception. Dont be naive.)



    Why the hell are you special? Why do you get God's help and other people dont? So I guess that you are better than many of the other people who pray for help with a disease and end up dying because God didn't answer their prayers? I'd like an explanation as to why your prayers were answered (at least in your mind) and why someone elses weren't?



    You shouldnt be angry, they gave you the choice of treatment or not. How did you get Jesus' blood in the OR? I doubt there is a hospital in the country that would allow any blood in an OR that was certified by the hospital. When did Jesus get his HIV test? He would have had to have one to donate blood for your operation. And if you didnt need the drs because of God's intervention, why did you let them go ahead with the surgery? Just in case? Cause maybe you werent so confident in the power of prayer?

    It's easy to say prayer helped after the fact. It's always easy to use God after the fact. Cure = God helped. No cure = God's will.

    My main point is of course why does God care one wit more about you than any other person. Why did your wife get 'miraculously' cured and millions of others didn't? I think it's incredibly arrogant to assume you are more worthy of God's intervention than anyone else. But in my experience with Christians of many flavors that's the norm.

    You remind me of that moron Kurt Warner after the Rams 1st SuperBowl with him as QB. "thank you Jesus, we owe it all to Jesus". Jesus doesn't give a damn who wins a football game.

    Why does he care about your wife more than any other?


    Again, glad your wife is still with us.


    Woof
    I'll quote you once because you're a newbie and don't deserve a Toby Actually I'm in a hurry.

    There were several opinions. They all concurred. The lumpectomy and succeeding masectomy were the only medically viable options.

    Yes, we did falter in our trust. We did not have a visible confirmation before the operation. We knew He was going to handle it for us, but we didn't know how.
    As to the chemo, see my post to Clulup about the chances they gave us about recurrance. The laugh was about us being able to trust God for the 10% difference. I hope you weren't to get pissy with me. My wife is the one who had cancer, not your loved one.

    Don't try to lecture me on my belief either.
    Your knowledge of my theology is very limited, basically to my posts here.

    As to why us being "special" (which is why I believe your understanding to be flawed) and God caring more for us than others, I never said anything to that effect.

    That's coming out of your mind. God doesn't care more about us than He does about anyone. He loves us all equally. But if you don't ask him for help, why would He? He comes into your life when you ask Him in. He respects you and leaves you alone when you don't want Him around.

    As to why He would heal my wife and not others? How the heck should I know? He's God, I'm not. I'm not supposed to understand him. I don't believe it's because He loves us more, or because we have less sin in our lives, or because we go to church more. I'm just grateful.

    As to the anger part. I said we weren't angry. Some people would be. I was just nipping that in the bud.

    As to your comments about Jesus' Blood. Get a grip. If you're going to try and start a flame war over someone's religious beliefs at least go to the trouble to try and understand what they're saying.

    As to the rest. We prayed very specific prayers and they were answered, particularly about the Paget's.

    The only arrogance I'm sensing around here is yours, mainly that someone could actually a differing opinion about God than yours. And possible be right.

    As to me reminding you of a moron, thanks. After saying earlier on how you admired my ability to civilly discuss matters with others I'm guessing you're one of those people who admire other people who play nice, but have no intention of doing it yourself.

    As to being glad about my wife still being around. Thank you, I find her very special.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  12. #1432  
    Gee a guy plays DEvil's Advocate and some people get all riled up.



    Don't try to lecture me on my belief either. Your knowledge of my theology is very limited, basically to my posts here.


    Dude, I was just asking questions. I wasn't lecturing you.

    As to why us being "special" (which is why I believe your understanding to be flawed) and God caring more for us than others, I never said anything to that effect.

    That's coming out of your mind. God doesn't care more about us than He does about anyone. He loves us all equally. But if you don't ask him for help, why would He? He comes into your life when you ask Him in. He respects you and leaves you alone when you don't want Him around.


    It was the implication that bothered me. By that I mean that because you asked for help and got it. Sure special was my word, so what. What about all the people that ask and don't get it? You asked you got help, others asked got nothing. If he loves all equally how does that work?

    As to why He would heal my wife and not others? How the heck should I know? He's God, I'm not. I'm not supposed to understand him. I don't believe it's because He loves us more, or because we have less sin in our lives, or because we go to church more. I'm just grateful.


    This is a bit of a contradiction in my view. Again, for those who ask he helps because he loves all equally. But why heal your wife and not others? Didn't you just say it was becaused you asked?

    As to your comments about Jesus' Blood. Get a grip. If you're going to try and start a flame war over someone's religious beliefs at least go to the trouble to try and understand what they're saying.


    Me get a grip? You got a sense of humor? Ever heard of tongue in cheek? Man I was making a joke. Flame war? My aren't we sensitive? Just asking some questions and having a little fun. I understood what you were saying. The absolute of absurdity of my comment about Jesus' blood and all that should have been a clue. Guess you're one of those that doesn't joke about religion.

    The only arrogance I'm sensing around here is yours, mainly that someone could actually a differing opinion about God than yours. And possible be right.


    Yep I am arrogant because there are different opinions than mine. And that they could possibly be right makes me arrogant too. What the hell does that mean? I disagree with you. I think your belief in God is foolish and illogical. That is my OPINION!!!! It doesn't make me arrogant it makes me of a different mind. You very likely think the same thing or something similar about anyone who doesnt believe in God. Whatever.

    As to me reminding you of a moron, thanks. After saying earlier on how you admired my ability to civilly discuss matters with others I'm guessing you're one of those people who admire other people who play nice, but have no intention of doing it yourself.


    I feel the need to clarify here. I didn't intend for you to think I was calling you a moron. Sorry about that. I was comparing you to Kurt Warner in the sense that I think it's ridiculous for someone to assume that God or Jesus or whatever will take any special notice of one person or group of people. If he did, that would contradict the idea he loves us all the same regardless. I think he (Kurt) is a moron for lots of reasons, but in part because he thinks that for some reason Jesus likes his team better than another. That is arrogance in my view. As to your wife's condition, I was applying the same logic. Why would your prayers be answered and not those of the girl who mistakenly had the wrong heart lung transplant? I saw her parents praying on the news. Why did God pass them by?

    My answer is because God doesn't get involved. If he was in the habit of healing anyone who asked, why would we need modern medicine, or premodern medicine for that matter? Why would God give us the power to treat disease and then come along and circumvent our efforts? Ya ya I know because he's God and he can. Were back to the convenient after the fact answer.

    Sorry again. Didn't mean to get you worked up. I just don't easily accept the "just because" answers.

    My best to Elizabeth.


    Woof
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. #1433  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Actually the surgery went great and as advertised. the care was excellent too. they have one of the best recovery rates in the NE.
    And yet you still discard their 'expert medical advice' when it comes to chemo? Feh.
    We did our research. The lab results are double checked and verified.
    Was the biopsy redone? How were they verified? Simply retested the same sample? Was the DNA in the sample crosschecked with your wife's DNA (to make sure the samples just weren't switched)?
    waste of money for the vast majority
    We're not talking about the vast majority. After a miraculous healing, one would think a whim of a lotto ticket on the same day couldn't hurt.
    The biopsy after the lumpectomy was the confirming biopsy. They knew she had the aggressive lump and the Paget's.
    And did you not say that the examination of the tissue after the mastectomy showed that it had gone away? Or do you consider it the price of your doubt?
    Do a google on Paget's if you wish.
    Not sure what good that would do.
    Might? Maybe I should start praying for you to grow a breast. Would you believe then
    Well, I would still be taking your word for it. I'm not going to be so crass as to ask for before and after photos.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #1434  
    BobbyMike, first congrats with the great news!

    I think your praying did help, but not in the way you think it did.
    The human body is an amazing 'machine' and the mind is a more powerfull healer than most people realize. If people really want to heal it is amazing how much the body can fight off.
    IMHO the praying and best wishes she got, boosted her will to fight, resulting in her body fighting of the cancer on it own.

    I've seen it before, my mother in law a year ago only had weeks to live according to docters.. and if you'd seen her you'd think days... her liver and kidneys were all messed up and she was retaining amonia.. not very pretty..
    A year later she is still alive and doing amazingly for a person who was so close to death...
    Her will to outlive her mother and not look weak to her kids was stronger than her fragile body...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15. #1435  
    for our jewish friends:
    Email god: https://onemail.bezeq.com/portal/he/OneMailMain.jsp
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  16. #1436  
    BobbyMike - Glad to hear your wife is ok and that her recovery has strengthened your love of life. As for the faith that goes with that, well, I think you know where I stand on that. But, and I mean this, the happiness and well being of a loved one is more important than whether or not a god caused it.

    Woof - I speak from experience - the message board does a very poor job of transmitting tone - thus our failure to recognize the "devil's advocate" tone. I find it's best to be heavy-handed with tone, it's not as witty, but it's much less dangerous.
  17. #1437  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    Well let's see. According to oncologist:

    20% chance of recurrance with chemo.
    50% chance of early menopause being triggered because of chemo.
    Chance of liver, heart, lung damage because of chemo.
    Chance of leukemia because of chemo.

    vs.

    30% chance of recurrance without chemo.

    These statistics are for people who had Paget's disease. Which she doesn't have anymore.
    Now that I see the basis for your decision, I think the way you decided is reasonable. I don't know if I/we would have decided the same way in the same situation, but I am glad to hear that you had a sound basis for your decision and didn't just take chances and hope for God's help solely.

    As to the rest of the discussion (and the tone that is missing - it actually reminds me of the time when BobbyMike called me a paranoid racist, without smiley ): I guess it is not so important whether somebody believes in God or not. Personally I don't because there is not a single sign for his existance. What is important is how somebody acts. There are lot's of people who believe in God and act stupidly and cruelly, and lot's of people who don't believe in God and act positively and mercifully - and vice-versa.

    Whether religion has an overall beneficial effect on humanity seems highly doubtful to me. Take all the religous wars as an example. In most of those wars, religion of course was not the only factor. But obviously religion helps a lot in making things worse (Catholics vs. Protestants in Northern Ireland, Christian vs. Muslims during the Crusades, Christians vs. Jews in Nazi Germany, Jews vs. Muslims in the Middle East, Muslims vs. Hindu in India, etc.).

    On the other hand, for many people religion seems to be a part of their life they depend on, so I don't try to take it away from them, even if there would be good reasons to.
  18. #1438  
    Originally posted by Woof
    Gee a guy plays DEvil's Advocate and some people get all riled up.

    ....

    Sorry again. Didn't mean to get you worked up. I just don't easily accept the "just because" answers.

    My best to Elizabeth.


    Woof
    It's easier to try what you were attempting if you have a history with a person.

    I did not understand the perceived tone. Irony and sarcasm are very hard to get across in this medium. Since I'm not familiar with you, your "pretend" attack came across as real. It sounded like you had an axe to grind (which you explanation didn't entirely explain away as you went back to it.)

    As to your questions about healing, why some get healed and others don't. I can't answer your question. You would need to familiarize yourself with the Bible and ask that question of someone who has studied that area. I just know that I'm grateful.
    I do know that God loves all equally, but some are healed and others aren't. I don't believe, as you implied, that my wife (and anyone else who has been healed) is more "special" than anyone else. That seems to be your viewpoint. I know the Bible says that people can have favor in his eye ( ie. David was "a man after God's own heart")

    As to your "moron" comment. I understood it for what it was. That's why I joked about it. Your perception of God is interesting, but not one that I can find supportable, either by experience or by the Bible's own words.

    The heart of Christianity is all about the Revelation of God's Love for us (shown through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, meaning slavation and redemption) taking precedance over God's Law (Judgement) for us. I know quite well that some people twist it and try to force it into their own little boxes. It's why some will actually blame Jesus' death on Jews while ignoring the fact that Jesus was an observant Jew, as was all his disciples and most, if not all, of his followers up to the time of his crucifixion and most importantly it was all done according to his will.

    BTW the Devil doesn't need an advocate. He does quite well on his own
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  19. #1439  
    Originally posted by Toby
    And yet you still discard their 'expert medical advice' when it comes to chemo? ... I'm not going to be so crass as to ask for before and after photos.
    I won't belabor our decision on the chemo. It was done based on statistics (as was the decision for the masectomy).

    The joke about the Lotto was over your head I guess. Gambling is considered a sinful behavior and wouldn't be something I would expect to be rewarded for. I don't believe in throwing away my money. From your point of view I guess it makes sense, but you would never expect a prayer to be answered either.

    I'm quite aware that you have a deep philosophically difference with me over religion/faith. That's fine. I find it humorous that you consistently will consider anything but a miracle when something does happen. Instead of trying to think of all the possible ways to circumvent the diagnosis (DNA checking the samples, what is this Star Trek? ) you might try an open mind. Oh, wait, that's not logical

    Someone recently said to me that unless someone experiences the miraculous that can't truly understand it when you witness to them about it. I'm finding that true. I find it very interesting at how hard people will work to "debunk" the miraculous in order to "help" others.

    How would you explain a dry $100 bill falling to my feet in Georgia during a rainstorm (at a time when I had been praying for a solution to a problem that would require about that much money)? This did happen to me last year.
    I'm quite sure you can't, yet you'll go around and around without considering the miraculous simply because you don't want to believe. That's fine Toby, it really is. You're behaving the way most people do, by rejecting anything that doesn't fit into your world view, all the while believing your being logical. All you're doing is limiting your choices/options.

    As to the photos. If my wife grows a new breast, she has already said she'll want to document it (our plastic surgeon wants to also). It may be crass to some, but since we already thought of it I don't think you would be for asking. I don't think it would help, because I believe you would just consider some other explanation for it happening. That's why I joked about you growing one. It's harder to deny a personal experience.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  20. #1440  
    Originally posted by septimus
    BobbyMike - Glad to hear your wife is ok and that her recovery has strengthened your love of life. As for the faith that goes with that, well, I think you know where I stand on that. But, and I mean this, the happiness and well being of a loved one is more important than whether or not a god caused it.
    Thanks for your good wishes, et al. Missed posting with you.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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