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  1. #121  
    Me:
    I took it that what he meant was that you believed he was the Son of God, meaning that his resurrection is part and parcel of that.

    D-R:
    But that isn't stated in the verse.


    In John 13-17 (the last supper) Jesus addresses the disciples and says in 15:26-27,
    "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
    And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."


    and skipping up to 16:7,
    "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

    and still further on in 16:16,
    "a little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father."

    What this means is that the resurrection is one of the 'proofs' that he is God's Only Son. The commandments give us guidelines, but you can get to heaven if you have commited a sin. The 'escape hatch' is Jesus and belief in him. Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:16,
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
    You have to truly repent your sins (Go and sin no more!) and ask for forgiveness from the Lord God, in Jesus' name. If you can't believe in the resurrection, which is the reason he came here, how can you truly believe in Christ at all?

    "The only time Jesus used the word commandments in reference to anything other than the 10 was in reference to the two He laid out. If people followed the rest of His teaching, they were "blessed."

    In Matthew 5:3-6:27 Jesus addresses 'the multitudes' and issues his beatitudes and in 5:19 says(KJV),
    "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments
    , and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

    (my highlighting of the word 'commandment, their italiacizing of 'them'.)
    This in reference to the old laws, the 'Ten Commandments' (we're in agreement here.)

    Then in addressing the Pharisee lawyer (trying to tempt him) in Matthew 22:37-40, he says,
    "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."


    I'm assuming that you mean these two commandments.

    This pastor was referring to the various beatitudes (explicitly put out in Matthew). Jesus never called any of them commandments, to me they read more as finer points of law. He also never claimed that they were 'his' commandments, they still came from God.

    "There could hardly be considered a "straight forward" approach to interpreting the gospels. In fact, if one were interpreting the gospels literally, there is little doubt that a belief in the risen Christ is not necessary."

    Ahh, therein lies the rub. How can one believe in his authority, and his message without believing in the miracles? He was born from a virgin, died on the cross and was resurrected, and then received up into heaven (right in front of them!) to sit at the right hand of God.

    "That may be, but when does that realization have to come? Doubting Thomas received proof."

    Yep, he did. What a lucky guy he was. All we get is our own faith. I acn only speak from what the New Testament stands for, that is a belief in Jesus of Nazerath as the Son of God. A person could do a lot worse than use his example as a code of life, treating him as a wise teacher, or philospher. That won't get you into heaven though, if you profess to be Christian. I don't think there is a possible way to 'prove' he was the Son of God. That all has to come from faith. I really don't know if there is another way to get to heaven, like I said before, I just know the way Jesus describes. That comes from belief in him chiefly. The 'covering of bases' you mentioned is people following the letter of the law, not the spirit.

    I know there is a God. He's proven it to me personally in many ways. I choose to believe in his Son (because it makes sense to me). I think it's great that you are exploring this, and I know it's really expecting too much to hope that everyone will see eye-to-eye on this issue. We free-willed humanoids are much too persnickity for that!

    Later,
    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  2. #122  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    I don't remember, but I don't think infinity is either positive or negative at any rate, so the argument may be moot from the get-go.
    Infinity is both positive and negative at the same time, as well as neither. When you travel towards infinity you are also travelling away from infinity, as it stretches infinitely in any direction away from your location in the infinite space-time continuum. Assuming that space and time can be infinite, because they can also be defined as being finite, and when something is finite and infinite at the same time - time being relative - there's really not much for it but to give up, go home and have a nice sandwich and cold beverage, maybe read a good book and wait for infinite space and time to catch up with your existance and snuff it out.
    (how's that for circular logic?)

    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
    My mom always brought me the Comforter when I was sick. I have one of my own now. It's in the chest in the bedroom. The chest is cold, so I give it some medicine, but nothing changes, but I'm sure it feels a little better since it has the Comforter.

    and still further on in 16:16,
    "a little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father."

    ah. Jesus went to visit his Dad in Jerusalem, then he came back after a bit.

    man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff.

    What this means is that the resurrection is one of the 'proofs' that he is God's Only Son. The commandments give us guidelines, but you can get to heaven if you have commited a sin. The 'escape hatch' is Jesus and belief in him.

    No sir, I don't like that. It's like saying you can be evil but you'll still go to a good place if you believe in Jesus. I mean, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" yet Holy War one after another.
    Non-Christian Soldier (NCS) and Christian Soldier (CS): ack, I've died. you killed me!
    St. Peter: ah, welcome to heaven, soldiers.
    You there. You're Christian, aren't you?
    CS: Yes.
    St. Peter: and you killed this Non-Christian?
    CS: Yes.
    St. Peter: Do you believe in Jesus?
    CS: Yes.
    St. Peter: oh, well, come on in then. {opens gate for CS to pass thru} And you there. You're not Christian, correct? And you killed that Christian Soldier?
    NCS: Yes, that's right.
    St. Peter: ah. Do you believe in Jesus?
    NCS: well, no, actually, I --
    St. Peter: TO HELL WITH YOU! {banishes NCS}

    Okay, melodramatic and super-simplified, but that's the idea I got off your statement. I mean, c'mon. If you do bad things, you have to live with that, you can't just wander along believing in a possible Son of God and that makes it right.
    Don't take it as a flame, I just have a differing point of view. (I'm also probably up too dam - er, darn, darn late.) (Yes, I did read the rest of the post; yes I do see where you say that just belief is not enough; it still sounds like a cheat.)
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  3.    #123  
    I'll get to your response tomorrow, Michael, but I'll clarify where I'm coming from right off the bat.

    I am not saying that Jesus didn't die for our sins. I'm not saying that He didn't rise from the dead. I am merely saying that a belief in His resurrection is not stated to be a prerequisite to attain heaven anywhere in the gospels. I am also pointing out that Jesus said those who believed w/o proof were "blessed." He did not say that unbelievers in His resurrection were damned. A time-frame is also curiously missing (odd, when you consider that Jesus was painfully aware of the limitations of time). It is possible that the full implications of Jesus' resurrection won't be apparent until our own death. I.e., we are to follow Jesus' commandments (from which all other spring - as I mentioned previously) until our death; at which point a decision will have to be made with the understanding that our freed minds will command. This also means that every major religion is leading its followers toward heaven (in theory at least). It also means that a person who professes no religion may yet be on the path to heaven.

    This is a whole new can of worms, but even His first commandment seems to allow some leeway. Doing good for the least of our brothers is the same as doing such to Jesus Himself. How far does that go toward loving God? Probably not too far, but it's an interesting question.

    One of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is in the perceived requirements to follow Jesus. Catholics believe that it takes faith and good deeds. Protestants believe that it takes faith alone. The Bible says it both ways, so don't waste time throwing quotes at me. My question is: can a person choose Jesus and salvation and then murder someone? I didn't think so. If someone chooses salvation, the behavior will follow. I.e., one of the main dogmatic differences between Catholics and Protestants is so much semantic bantering. To put it bluntly, each religion wants to have something that makes them holier.

    Reminds me of a joke (I don't remember where I heard it from, so forgive me if it's a repeat). A Jew, a protestant, and a Muslim die and go to heaven. Saint Peter meets them at the gate and lets them in, as they have each lived virtuous lives. During the initial tour of heaven, each of the recently departed immediately notice a large, walled off area. The Jew, overcome with curiousity, asks St. Peter, "What's the wall for?" St. Peter responds, "Oh, that for the Catholics. They like to think they're the only ones up here."
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  4. #124  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    It is possible that the full implications of Jesus' resurrection won't be apparent until our own death...If someone chooses salvation, the behavior will follow.
    I think that if someone accepts Jesus they TRY to pattern the behavior after him, trying to become "Christ-like." However, man being the sinful dog that he is cannot ever truly achieve this...(Jimmy Falwell, anyone?)

    Salvation depends on your belief in Jesus only. (And I won't get into your point about WHEN you do the choosing, as I don't know the answer.) But if you choose Jesus then, presumably, you want to show Him and everybody and you want to please Him and therefore try to alter your behavior accordingly--which is not a requirement for your salvation. Can you choose Jesus and then murder someone and still go to heaven? I don't know--luckily, it's not up to me and, like many theological hypotheticals, I am inherently unable to figure the answer out because the answer cannot be known in this world.

    I know you said don't pester you with quotes, but Ephesians 2:8-9 says
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." That's pretty straight-forward, I think.

    If man can redeem himself through his own good works/actions, what's the point of having God? I think the good works sort of get you a greater reward in heaven--won't look for the verse but I think it's in there somewhere.

    Also, I agree with bobbymike--can you "believe" in Jesus as the Son of God without buying into the resurrection, etc? That's an awful big loophole, but then again I imagine God is too big to worry about whether I think His procedure has loopholes. I liked your joke.
  5. #125  
    Originally posted by Yorick:
    man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff.


    That's OK. We'll have lots of company in Hell with people like Gandhi, Einstein, Twain, etc.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #126  
    This is a response to both Yorick and D-R.
    I guess I wasn't making myself clear with my belief. I don't think that it's possible to be a Christian and murder someone, get away with it via your prior relationship with Jesus and go to heaven.
    It is possible though, to have commited a murder whilst an unbeliever, find Christ and be saved, and then go to heaven. (The Apostle Paul (formerly Saul) is a good example. You're supposed to resist sin then, because you know that it's wrong. Even Paul had problems resisting sin after he was saved.
    This doesn't mean that you can sin, with the expectation of being saved, 'repent', and go on your merry little way. That involves a the sin of presumption towards God, basically trying to twist around the letter of the law. A big no-no. I believe that's what you were referring to Yorick, in that case the 'Christian' soldier had broken a commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'. You can't kill people and be truly acting in Christ's name.

    My Church (AOG) believes in acts and faith. For a follower of Christ must not only believe in the Gospel, he must go out and minister to his/her fellow man.

    D-R, I believe John 3:16 pretty much sums it all up. The resurrection was already prophesied, and preached before Jesus was born. His role as the Redeemer was to come down from heaven and basically soften the harsh punishments that were being meted for breaking any of the Ten Commandments. This was a time where for example sons could be stoned to death by their communities for talking back to their parents (Jewish law, the same harsh law which allowed Jesus to be crucified). Jesus gave us all a way to repent for our sins, since everyone sins, and still get into heaven. He clearly states that the only way to get to his Father was through him. I think you're parsing when you say that he never states that you need to believe in his resurrection to attain entrance to heaven. Resurrection is the central theme in his short life. Without his sacrifice, and his subsequent return, his life on earth would not have had the required impact he felt he needed.

    I have a hard time with large bureaucratic entities controlling the word of God. They have too much of a history of subverting their power over people for their own enrichment and ignoring the will of the Lord when said will is inconvenient for them. When the apostles wrote those crazy letters, they addressed such a rift between the Church. Too many people forgetting the commandments we've been talking about, because they're too busy arguing over minute points. Then they eventually throw away the commandments and start killing each other. Nice way to "love thy neighbor as thyself", eh?

    I've always had a hard time with exactly what your discussing, will a person who obeys all the commandments, but doesn't necessarily believe in Christ get into heaven? And if not, is that fair? It's a moot point for me and mine, because we are trying tio follow the will of God and we believe in Christ- so if we have to believe and do, we will be covered as long as we keep it up and not take anything for granted. For us it's not 'covering bases', because we truly believe. I think that you would have a better chance being a non-believer that had never heard of Christ, but followed the commandments, then someone who professed to believe in Christ, but didn't follow those commandments. Jesus' name on your lips alone is no ticket to heaven, he requires your faith to be displayed in action.

    Thanks for the continued conversation. I'm learning everytime I sit down and read/respond.

    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  7. #127  
    Yorick wrote:
    "man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff. "

    I think you're ok. Too many people take themselves way too seriously. And it was funny!
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  8.    #128  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    I know you said don't pester you with quotes, but Ephesians 2:8-9 says
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." That's pretty straight-forward, I think.
    My point behind not throwing quotes at me was merely that I will quote the counterpart.

    James 1:19-26
    "Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.

    If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is in vain."
    You're right. That is pretty straight-forward. Or how about:

    James 2:14-26
    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fultilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messangers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
    The same could be said of Jonah, Noah, Jesus, Paul, etc. It was their actions that defined their faith.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  9.    #129  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    but then again I imagine God is too big to worry about whether I think His procedure has loopholes.
    I don't think God's Word has loopholes. I think it has intentional omissions. Makes sense, if God created the whole of humanity, that He wants the whole of humanity to have a means of reaching Him. I also have a hard time buying that Jesus, who was notorious for his speaking out against ritual, would so severely limit the means to reach Him to following the rituals of a particular religion.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  10. #130  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    The same could be said of Jonah, Noah, Jesus, Paul, etc. It was their actions that defined their faith.
    Right. But their actions did not cause their salvation. "Faith without works is dead" has always meant to me: faith without works is pointless.

    Of course, I am not advocating faith and nothing else. I am saying that where the Bible discusses SALVATION and not 'one's daily walk in the Lord' FAITH seems to be the only requirement. The verses above sort of support my point that good works earn you "blessings."
  11. #131  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson

    I don't think God's Word has loopholes. I think it has intentional omissions. Makes sense, if God created the whole of humanity, that He wants the whole of humanity to have a means of reaching Him. I also have a hard time buying that Jesus, who was notorious for his speaking out against ritual, would so severely limit the means to reach Him to following the rituals of a particular religion.
    Yeah, i was trying (inartfully) to say that--man's mind is too small to comprehend all of God's plan and who am I to judge a provision he may have made for someone else.

    I have always heard that there is a place (not exactly purgatory? I'm not Catholic so I don't know.) where those who were not exposed to his Word during their lifetimes go...I guess this is where someone above got the idea that Christians are egotistical b/c they assume (believe?) that their religion is the one that everyone gets a chance to convert to. And how do they know that they won't get a chance to hear about some other religion, having never been exposed to it?

    Is it a matter of picking one and going with it? Not like hedging your bets, but knowing that there is a "God" and worshipping the best you can. I guess the verse I quoted above "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me" would indicate no....
  12.    #132  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon


    Right. But their actions did not cause their salvation. "Faith without works is dead" has always meant to me: faith without works is pointless.
    pointless, or ineffective?

    Of course, I am not advocating faith and nothing else. I am saying that where the Bible discusses SALVATION and not 'one's daily walk in the Lord' FAITH seems to be the only requirement. The verses above sort of support my point that good works earn you "blessings."
    That's just a semantic that has been overly bantered.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  13.    #133  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    I have always heard that there is a place (not exactly purgatory? I'm not Catholic so I don't know.) where those who were not exposed to his Word during their lifetimes go...
    Hahahaha! It was called "Limbo," and you should've seen the Catholics backpedal after this "doctrine" got raked over the logic coals. It went part and parcel with how children who have been aborted spent eternity. It's almost as if the Pope could hear his money flow drying up.

    [added]
    Just found out that Limbo was never actually a tenet of Catholic belief. Memory's the first thing to go. I distinctly remember a priest speaking of Limbo in reference to the aborted, but have not found anyone (priest or otherwise) willing to admit to such a belief since then.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.org/a...0.htm#ap090401
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 07/19/2001 at 10:23 AM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  14. #134  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    That's just a semantic that has been overly bantered.
    What, me belabor a point? Beat a dead horse? Harp on the same old thing? Nag something to death?

    Yeah, Limbo, that's it...that's for the link.
  15. #135  
    "pointless, or ineffective?"

    Pointless because it's ineffective?

    "I don't think God's Word has loopholes. I think it has intentional omissions. Makes sense, if God created the whole of humanity, that He wants the whole of humanity to have a means of reaching Him. I also have a hard time buying that Jesus, who was notorious for his speaking out against ritual, would so severely limit the means to reach Him to following the rituals of a particular religion."

    I think you're correct in noting that. What I believe he was talking about often was ritual for the sake of ritual, without belief. He spoke of the Church, not a church. To him the Church represented all believers, not a particular church. You can go into the letters of the apostles to the different churches and read the warning about such a thing.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  16. #136  
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  17. #137  
    !#$%@#^#@^&&%@$^#!$%@# Windows!

    Why on earth is "CRTL-W" the command to close a window?!?! I had a HUGE reply to nearly everything in this thread (especially to Bobbymike's concerns, I even laid out his counterargument for Free Will into a prettly little modus ponens setup!), then I go so start a sentence with a capital "W", but hit "Ctrl w" instead, and it's all gone @Q#$^@$^T$%@#$^
    !#$%@#$%
    !#$%
    !$
    &

    ...

    sigh...

    Ok, Bobbymike: my definition of free will is as barebones as it gets, something like "A conscious being acts in some way without being controlled about another conscious being." You're definition does, in fact, counter my argument about a possible universe because it seems (as I take it) to present a necessary connection between free will and the existence of evil (a necessary connection being the only thing that can disprove a possible connection, the thing that ticked you off so much). However, I don't think that there's a necessary connection between free will and evil, and I wonder where you're getting it from.

    But, you yourself admit that god isn't "wholly beneficient," and continue to cite the plagues that god visited upon the Egyptians. In other words, you agree with my conclusion, "god wills evil." Right?

    But that's the whole conundrum of Christianity. God saves, but god also made it necessary to be saved. The Xn says "no, god didn't make it necessary, we did by choosing evil." But who made evil a choice in the first place? And then think about the last place, the rapture/armageddon/final battle/judgement day/yougettheidea. Isn't that when everything is set right? So all the evil in the world turns out to be "for the best." So was it really evil, if it was there to teach us and to make our lives fuller and more exciting? God may will evil, sure, but for an Xn, isn't evil nothing more than good delayed?

    That's my problem with Xty. Put aside the culture of meekness, the 700 club, the inquisition, the master/slave::god/creation relationship, and everything else. Xty, in the final analisys, refuses to let us direclty experience and deal with the real pain and joys of existing in the world. Jesus suffered the pain for us, and god's giving us the real joy when we die.

    We have to create stories to interact with the world, it's how we create meaning, how we remember stuff. I know a certain fact because I can relate it to another fact, and another, and that to my feeling of a apple in my mouth, and so on. Religion is the same thing, its a story we collectively create so we can make meaning of the hardships and the happiness we're enduring. But what if your story replaces your reality? What then? You're born again.

    I can see I'm once again veering off toward lock-down land, if I offend, it is because we've hit upon one of my passions, and passion often overrides common sense and always overrides decorum. I will reiterate that I respect people, many if not most Xn, who live morally, speak intelligently, and accept openly. I do not disrespect people for their beliefs, but am merely stating my own personal disagreement with some commonly held beliefs.

    Ctrl-W
  18.    #138  
    dietrichbohn, do you ever get the sneaking suspicion that you're on a one-way track to hell? I'll pray for your soul.

    Anyway, free will as you define it doesn't exist. That requires God leaving all options available to His creation. He didn't. Limitations have been imposed - namely time and space. BobbyMike, though also on a one-way track to hell (he's not Catholic, after all), is using the definition most accepted for the term "free will."

    In other words, you're dreadfully wrong. I'll FedEx some ice to you when I get to heaven.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  19. #139  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    dietrichbohn, do you ever get the sneaking suspicion that you're on a one-way track to hell? I'll pray for your soul.


    How can I go somewhere that doesn't exist? Even the Pope says it's pretty much a state of mind...

    Anyway, free will as you define it doesn't exist. That requires God leaving all options available to His creation. He didn't. Limitations have been imposed - namely time and space.
    Why not? All I said was "A conscious being acts in some way without being controlled about another conscious being." That doesn't mean that things like time and space (and neurons, but let's not go there just yet...) can't control/limit us. Free Will just means that another conscious being doesn't control our actions. In fact, I think it's much easier to accept than a notion that it tied to the idea of evil, which is a much shakier proposition.

    BobbyMike, though also on a one-way track to hell (he's not Catholic, after all), is using the definition most accepted for the term "free will."
    LOL! And D-R, you know that "most accepted" has almost 0 bearing on the truthfulness of a given premise. I hereby challenge "the definition most accepted for the term 'free will.'" I think it unnecessarily includes the idea of evil.

    In other words, you're dreadfully wrong. I'll FedEx some ice to you when I get to heaven.
    Does Fed Ex take deliveries from heaven? Seems like they might not be let in... Fed Ex the ice now, I won't wait for hell to burn...
  20. #140  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn:
    Does Fed Ex take deliveries from heaven? Seems like they might not be let in...


    If you slip Charon a C-note, he'll take anything across.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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