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  1. #861  
    Originally posted by NeilMcD
    [...] The kid can go with his mom to church and their sunday school sessions when he's older (say 7 years old when he's at an age that we can reasonably discuss what mom and dad believe). My wife and I strongly believe that he needs to reach his conclusions on his own through either rational thought or via his faith.
    Then maybe instead of sending him to church, you should make him read the texts of each of the major religions (Koran, Torah, KJV, something based on an old Geneva Bible prior to all the flowering of the language by the KJV, some Eastern stuff, etc.) and then give him some philosophy books by the likes of Neitsche et al.
    We will tell him he is free to believe what he wants to believe. If he says he doesn't believe that, say, that Jesus walked on water or changed water to wine and gives a good rational argument (for his age), then my wife will have to respect his beliefs.

    Conversely, if he says he believes Jesus is the son of god and the only way to get to heaven is through him (or whatever it is John 3:16 says) and shows to me that he isn't just repeating what the teacher said, then I have to respect that belief as well.
    The potential problem with this course is that it isn't much of a real choice. It's basically a 'pick mommy or daddy' option. I don't really think it's right to put a kid through that.
    In sunday school or in regular school, he is free to question or disagree with the teacher on what she says (politely of course) and even discuss the subject matter in depth with the teacher (after class or during break). He is even free to explore other religions and check out their services and see what he believes in.
    And who is going to attend those services with him? What subtle signals may he pick up from them by their reactions to the services?
    In all, We want to teach him to think for himself and not to be the type of mindless drone that we see in some schools these days being taught how to pass the standards tests and not how to think for themselves.
    Thinking is dangerous. A mind is a terrible thing.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #862  
    Originally posted by NeilMcD
    The kid can go with his mom to church and their sunday school sessions when he's older (say 7 years old when he's at an age that we can reasonably discuss what mom and dad believe). My wife and I strongly believe that he needs to reach his conclusions on his own through either rational thought or via his faith. ...
    In all, We want to teach him to think for himself and not to be the type of mindless drone that we see in some schools these days being taught how to pass the standards tests and not how to think for themselves.

    Thankfully some people do feel this way. I have neighbors to one side (not the ones on the other side which haven't been especially neighborly) who are nice, decent people as well as being church-goers ... whose two young sons have already been completely "indoctrinated" and won't even accept the possibility that Jesus may not be an actual entity. Granted they're young and it may be too much for them, but it bothers me because children in general are so open to ideas, IME.



    Originally posted by Toby
    No, treating the gun with moderation would only be firing it when necessary.
    I'm reminded of the most recent issue of Sergio Aragones' Groo (for the uninitiated, Groo is a comic book about a brainless, berzerker swordsman; Sergio Aragones is likely the fastest cartoonist in the world). Groo had vowed to never slay again, believing people would not fear him so much. It's suggested to him that he use his swords only when he needs to, instead of "always" or "never"; he considers this for a couple panels then says, "You can do that?"

    The potential problem with this course is that it isn't much of a real choice. It's basically a 'pick mommy or daddy' option. I don't really think it's right to put a kid through that. ...
    And who is going to attend those services with him? What subtle signals may he pick up from them by their reactions to the services?


    Though I agree with you on both of the above, Toby, it's difficult for anyone to make a decision about their faith without being influenced one way or another by outside forces, such as peer or parental pressure.

    Thinking is dangerous. A mind is a terrible thing.
    and it must be stopped. befoe it kills someone.
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  3. #863  
    Originally posted by Yorick
    [...] A mind is a terrible thing. [...] and it must be stopped. befoe it kills someone.
    Foo'ball is my life.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #864  
    The potential problem with this course is that it isn't much of a real choice. It's basically a 'pick mommy or daddy' option. I don't really think it's right to put a kid through that. ...
    Good point. I hadn't thought of that. We'll have to be careful in making sure he understands that its not pick mommy or daddy's beliefs. It's decision that only he has to make. Both my wife and I have agreed to respect that decision as his own.

    Then maybe instead of sending him to church, you should make him read the texts of each of the major religions (Koran, Torah, KJV, something based on an old Geneva Bible prior to all the flowering of the language by the KJV, some Eastern stuff, etc.) and then give him some philosophy books by the likes of Neitsche et al.
    I like your suggestion of exposing him to different religious ideas or services.

    Taking him to the services at an AME church where praising God with wonderful gospel music then maybe, to a Friends Meetinghouse where sitting silently and having your own discussion with God is encouraged would be a good exercise in seeing how differently people view their relationship with the Big Guy.

    Perhaps a service at a synogauge (sp?) and a mass at my parent's catholic church would also show him how similar religions can have tightly structured rituals and symbols that are important to them.

    I'd love to expose him to islam but I'd have to find out what resources there are around here.

    Its a great idea, Toby. I'll talk to my wife about it.
  5. #865  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT


    True, but not making them available that easy makes it harder to get one, which makes it less likely to use one.. There always will be guns used by criminals I'm afraid, but in the US it seems like an arms-race between criminals and non-criminals. Criminals get a gun, non criminals need a bigger gun to defend themselves, which makes the criminals buy even bigger guns etc etc..
    That's called marketing
  6. #866  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    True...
    But I guess its the same with alcohol.. its is the people who abuse it who cause the problem... if you drink in moderation there is no problem..
    If you fire a gun in moderation (only half the clip) it can still be a big problem..
    Drinking in moderation is no problem unless you're an alcoholic.
    Shooting in moderation is no problem unless you're a killer.
  7. #867  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    Someone needs to find a way to put this thread into a Palm Doc file, and post it on memoware, with monthly updates.
    Can't you make that an avantgo channel?
  8. #868  
    "I like your suggestion of exposing him to different religious ideas or services. "

    The problem with your whole approach is the same with the "unschooling" method of homeschooling (in unschooling the child directs their own education). Contrary to what you may believe children aren't capable of making those kinds of decisions for themselves. They have no foundation. If they were able we would allow them to drink, drive, and own handguns (no jokes about Louisiana!).

    Children need and desire direction. It would probably be better for you to stay home every other Sunday with your (boy,girl?) and your wife take him/her to church on the alternate Sundays. Do this until he/she talks and asks to go/stay. Don't expose him/her to a myriad of religious services. That would just be confusing.

    Many kids 'choose' to break away from their parents beliefs (or societies) regardless of what the parent wants. You need to show your child direction by believing in something yourself and not backing down to "what everybody else thinks". If they 'get religious' or not, they will respect you for it.

    What is being called brainwashing here is actually a little thing called culture. Why are so many suburban white boys enamored with pseudo 'urban black culture' (rap/ gang banging)? Maybe because their parents are afraid to direct them because they don't want to "push' their kids into something. The kids look for someone else for direction. We can see how well that worked for that ***** that ended up in Afghanistan fighting against his own countrymen. His parents allowed him to "explore" on his own.

    Get over it. If you are wrong in what you believe in, credit your children with enough intelligence to realize that and go their own way. Just make sure your child gets a well rounded education (more than one source of history, etc.) so they can have a rock to stand on.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  9. #869  
    YAIRR (yet another inane ramble ressurrection)

    My avatar: bring it!
  10. #870  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    The problem with your whole approach is the same with the "unschooling" method of homeschooling (in unschooling the child directs their own education).
    No, it's not. The parents are still directing the child's education. They're just not directing it to a foregone conclusion.
    Contrary to what you may believe children aren't capable of making those kinds of decisions for themselves. They have no foundation.
    That's the purpose of educating them in multiple foundations.
    If they were able we would allow them to drink, drive, and own handguns (no jokes about Louisiana!).
    That sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    Children need and desire direction. It would probably be better for you to stay home every other Sunday with your (boy,girl?) and your wife take him/her to church on the alternate Sundays. Do this until he/she talks and asks to go/stay.
    ITYM until the kid picks mommy or daddy.
    Don't expose him/her to a myriad of religious services. That would just be confusing. [...]
    Why would it be confusing?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #871  
    Originally posted by septimus
    My avatar: bring it!
    Your avatar is as ridiculous as its premise and the idea that I should care about either of the bags of sh*t that the Big Two parties are selling.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12.    #872  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Your avatar is as ridiculous as its premise and the idea that I should care about either of the bags of sh*t that the Big Two parties are selling.
    Maybe something pretty will grow.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  13. #873  
    Originally posted by septimus
    YAIRR (yet another inane ramble ressurrection)

    My avatar: bring it!
    did you draw it yourself?
  14. #874  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    Maybe something pretty will grow.
    Nah...you'd need some good seeds for that. I'm thinking mold or fungus is more likely.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #875  
    Originally posted by septimus
    YAIRR (yet another inane ramble ressurrection)

    My avatar: bring it!
    Still living in the past, DB?
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  16. #876  
    Originally posted by dampeoples


    Can't you make that an avantgo channel?
    It'd be too big, unless it can be seperated into pages.

    EDIT: 400 POSTS!!!
    Last edited by terrysalmi; 06/06/2002 at 06:13 PM.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  17. #877  
    Originally posted by septimus
    My avatar: bring it!
    It's of poor resolution and has one of those nigh-ubiquitous swooshes. A bit 1998 design-wise (if not earlier).
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  18. #878  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    Still living in the past, DB?
    "re-elect W 2004"? Hasn't he done enough damage?
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  19. #879  
    "re-elect W 2004"? Hasn't he done enough damage?
    Though we don't need to worry about going off-topic in this thread, it has been discussed (heavily) the past 24 hours in 'off topic part of staple's e-coupons'


    BTW - My avator was done with no knowledge of Septimus' hideous thoughts and his avator. He probably copied it off mine.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  20.    #880  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Nah...you'd need some good seeds for that. I'm thinking mold or fungus is more likely.
    I disagree. Mold and fungus have been used for great benefit for humanity. I'd guess something more along the lines of tsetse flies.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.

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