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  1. tirk's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The norms of society defined by that society...
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    ...the state reacts within the law, which does not allow for revenge nor entail malice - it reflects the norms of society.
    The problem is that becomes the dictatorship of the majority. What if the majority choose, as in Nazi Germany, to persecute Jews? Society needs both democracy and morality (of course, we can always argue over the latter!)
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  2. #102  
    Tirk, your example is an extreme example and is highly unlikely in the US. A decision by the majority though is definitely better than that of the minority, which in reality is what the Nazi action was.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    The problem is that becomes the dictatorship of the majority. What if the majority choose, as in Nazi Germany, to persecute Jews? Society needs both democracy and morality (of course, we can always argue over the latter!)
    Which isn't always a bad thing. Take for instance, well, adult-child sex (not rape) where a child isn't forced into sexual relations per se, but rather consents (for example a 15 yr old and a 25 yr old).

    The majority in this country call that wrong and disregarding the debate, at least choose to proactively do something (typically jailtime).

    In this case, the majority over-ruled the minority (and yes, there are some who see no wrong in this), but yet we refrain from the references to Hitler.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    Nope... I think you missed it. The death penalty is nothing more than petty, state-sponsored (and inflicted) revenge and revenge entails malice and premeditation thus making the death penalty murder.
    gksmithlcw, what, characteristics of a response qualify it to be deemed revenge?
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    The problem is that becomes the dictatorship of the majority. What if the majority choose, as in Nazi Germany, to persecute Jews? Society needs both democracy and morality (of course, we can always argue over the latter!)
    If there were a shared sense of morality, what absolute need would there be for democracy, per se?
  6. tirk's Avatar
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    If there were a shared sense of morality, what absolute need would there be for democracy, per se?
    Democracy decides between some things that are morally equivalent - it's a different set of tools from morality, though they often overlap. Furthermore, "a shared sense of morality" is *very* unlikely to happen in an human grouping of more than one.

    Can you name any human society or grouping that hasn't, directly or indirectly, employed some sort of police force to impose their morality on at least a minority (and often, the majority) of their members?
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Democracy decides between some things that are morally equivalent - it's a different set of tools from morality, though they often overlap. Furthermore, "a shared sense of morality" is *very* unlikely to happen in an human grouping of more than one.

    Can you name any human society or grouping that hasn't, directly or indirectly, employed some sort of police force to impose their morality on at least a minority (and often, the majority) of their members?
    Policing is expected. I thought you were saying that the method of Government had to be "Democracy" (as opposed to another form of governance).
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    gksmithlcw, what, characteristics of a response qualify it to be deemed revenge?
    In my opinion if one has to lower oneself to the level of the criminal to respond said response is also criminal.

    If it is wrong to murder then why does the state turn around and murder in kind? One can argue all he wants that the state's response isn't murder but if a citizen were to murder a murderer for committing murder it would still be murder hence the reason vigilante justice is illegal...

    Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Logic seems not to apply here and I'm tired of it.
    Grant Smith
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  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    If it is wrong to murder then why does the state turn around and murder in kind?
    Because the state isn't murdering--which is the point you refuse to accept.

    One can argue all he wants that the state's response isn't murder but if a citizen were to murder a murderer for committing murder it would still be murder hence the reason vigilante justice is illegal...
    Actually, a citizen isn't allowed to engage in much of any "vigilante justice." If I steal your car, you aren't allowed to come to my home, barge in and physically take back the keys. The state however, is.

    Secondly, your problem is in the arbitrary application of murder to all killing. For example, if you break in my home waving a knife at my wife and I sneak up behind you and shoot you in the head--that isn't murder; instead, we call that self-defense. That of course is the point here when dealing with the word murder. There is a very specific meaning to it and you seem unable or unwilling to grasp it. This is why the law has different terms to match different instances.
    • If I sit at home and think about how to kill you and then do, that is murder.
    • If I run a stop sign and t-bone your vehicle killing you, that is involuntary manslaughter.
    • If you and I get into a fight at the club over who takes home the stripper and I kill you that is voluntary manslaughter.
    Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Logic seems not to apply here and I'm tired of it.
    No, logic is just fine--you are just hell bent on calling things what they aren't and it sounds like you've resorted to pouting.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Because the state isn't murdering--which is the point you refuse to accept.



    Actually, a citizen isn't allowed to engage in much of any "vigilante justice." If I steal your car, you aren't allowed to come to my home, barge in and physically take back the keys. The state however, is.

    Secondly, your problem is in the arbitrary application of murder to all killing. For example, if you break in my home waving a knife at my wife and I sneak up behind you and shoot you in the head--that isn't murder; instead, we call that self-defense. That of course is the point here when dealing with the word murder. There is a very specific meaning to it and you seem unable or unwilling to grasp it. This is why the law has different terms to match different instances.
    • If I sit at home and think about how to kill you and then do, that is murder.
    • If I run a stop sign and t-bone your vehicle killing you, that is involuntary manslaughter.
    • If you and I get into a fight at the club over who takes home the stripper and I kill you that is voluntary manslaughter.


    No, logic is just fine--you are just hell bent on calling things what they aren't and it sounds like you've resorted to pouting.
    Nope... No pouting... :-)
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  11. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #111  
    If someone rapes and/or murders a child then I think they should be executed immediately following the trial. Heck, these things involve DNA evidence and are beyond the shadow of doubt.

    If someone rapes a child without murdering the victim, then I believe that chemical casteration is appropriate. First offenses included.

    It seems that a >3 year difference in age would also be relevant to my second opinion to allow for dating relationships of 17 YO to a 20YO, for example. This protects couples who are dating while one ages past 18 and the other does not. Anyone dating a minor of 4 years or greater is a fool.

    These are all opinions of course.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    In my opinion if one has to lower oneself to the level of the criminal to respond said response is also criminal.

    If it is wrong to murder then why does the state turn around and murder in kind? One can argue all he wants that the state's response isn't murder but if a citizen were to murder a murderer for committing murder it would still be murder hence the reason vigilante justice is illegal...

    Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Logic seems not to apply here and I'm tired of it.
    Well, actually, the prohibition against vigilante justice is more tied to the principle of due process. The outcome may end in the same result, but the community would have sorted through the facts and reached a conclusion.

    For example, the Blblical model required 2 to 3 witnesses to condemn, and there was enforceable prohibition against witnesses testifying falsely. This was aimed at 1) minimizing the risk of the innocent being punished; 2) maximizing the opportunity for the guilty to be punished; and most importantly 3) encouraging all to do right by their neighbor.

    The same principles underly our justice system (though defense attorneys seem to have placed higher priority on acquittal than justice).
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    (though defense attorneys seem to have placed higher priority on acquittal than justice).
    That's how they make their livings... ;-)
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
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    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    The same principles underly our justice system (though defense attorneys seem to have placed higher priority on acquittal than justice).
    Why is that any 'worse' than prosecutors placing higher priority on their conviction rates rather than justice?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why is that any 'worse' than prosecutors placing higher priority on their conviction rates rather than justice?
    It's equally disconcerting.

    My guess though is that a prosecutor zealous for convictions likely will not pursue such when he/she knows a defendent has done no wrong. Whereas, a defense attorney zealous for acquittals likely will pursue such despite knowing the defendent has done wrong.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    It's equally disconcerting.

    My guess though is that a prosecutor zealous for convictions likely will not pursue such when he/she knows a defendent has done no wrong. Whereas, a defense attorney zealous for acquittals likely will pursue such despite knowing the defendent has done wrong.
    Why would you guess that? Such a guess seems to say more about your prejudices than actuality.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would you guess that? Such a guess seems to say more about your prejudices than actuality.
    To quote a fellow TC-er:

    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    That's how they make their livings... ;-)
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    To quote a fellow TC-er:
    And how exactly do prosecutors make their living?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    And how exactly do prosecutors make their living?
    Well, I'm not a prosecutor and have never played one on TV. So, this is speculative at best.

    My perception is that being employed by the state, their compensation is not directly tied to prosecutorial outcomes, but are determined by relevant labor agreements. Granted, convictions may be a parameter in subjective evaluation for promotion. But, they are not the primary determinants.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Well, I'm not a prosecutor and have never played one on TV. So, this is speculative at best.
    So, are you saying you have been a defense attorney (or played one on TV), or that you concede my point?
    My perception is that being employed by the state,
    Who employs the average defense attorney?
    their compensation is not directly tied to prosecutorial outcomes,
    Shirley, you can't be serious.
    but are determined by relevant labor agreements.
    Which union handles the prosecutor's office?
    Granted, convictions may be a parameter in subjective evaluation for promotion. But, they are not the primary determinants.
    Really? But, how would you know?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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