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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post


    Not even close.



    Apparently not as you keep accusing me of downplaying the level of trauma an adult receives—which isn’t even what I am doing. I am comparing the level of cognitive and emotional ability a child has to work with as compared to adults and drawing my conclusion. I asked for evidence that contradicted the following statement (which is the basis for the entire argument):

    The point was there exists a major difference in the aftermath between adults who are sexually abused and children. Furthermore, that difference was significant enough to warrant completely different approaches regarding punishment.

    You have simply not provided it (and no, people you know is NOT evidence to the contrary here).
    I already said I won't be posting other people's personal details on here, so no I won't be providing it directly. But victims I know of are good enough evidence to me that adults can suffer just as much as children, regardless of what YOU or some study says!! Adults just have more resources available to attempt to help them cope, but even then many still feel alone and helpless. Often children really don't get a lot of help or support and are often directly under the thumb of the abuser, which makes the situation that much worse. But there's no doubt about it in my mind after what I've seen, that adults can suffer just as much. There will be some who go on with their lives, and some who feel the need to alter their entire lives and not necessarily for the better. It's more out of reaction to fear and helplessness they suddenly find themselves feeling. So YES, the aftermath can be just as chilling for some adults. It just registers differently.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    How so? The state is not directly harmed in most crimes, so viewing most sanctions as 'revenge' requires some significant contortions and projection of emotion onto 'the system'.
    You're right, the state isn't harmed--by most crimes. However, if a person steals my car and is arrested, he goes to jail. Yet, he did nothing to the state but they still meted out a retalitory action. Likewise, if a man rapes a person, he has done nothing to the state. Similarly, they still mete out a punishment on behalf of the victim. It's revenge on behalf of the victim.

    Now, you may wish to remove the word revenge, which in such case then it would need removed from ALL cases that aren't a matter between the perpetrator and the state (tax evasion, espionage, etc).

    This is merely a matter of applying consistency.


    Phone Diva, I respectfully decline to debate/argue with you on this matter any further. I simply refuse to base any concept of our laws on the mere use of anecdotal evidence. Our justice system doesn't work that way (reasonable doubt) and neither should debates on the merits of punishment be either.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  3. #63  
    I'm sorry you feel real live victims amount to nothing but "anecdotal evidence".

    I'm done too and I will continue to support adult rape victims as well as young.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    You're right, the state isn't harmed--by most crimes. However, if a person steals my car and is arrested, he goes to jail. Yet, he did nothing to the state but they still meted out a retalitory action.
    Was it retaliatory? This again implies that there was some harm done to the state which caused it to lash out in kind.
    Likewise, if a man rapes a person, he has done nothing to the state. Similarly, they still mete out a punishment on behalf of the victim. It's revenge on behalf of the victim.
    Is it? Or is it fulfilling the social contract by trying to discourage further similar crimes? If it's truly revenge on behalf of the victim, why doesn't the victim get to decide the appropriate sanction?
    Now, you may wish to remove the word revenge, which in such case then it would need removed from ALL cases that aren't a matter between the perpetrator and the state (tax evasion, espionage, etc).
    I think the word and concept should not apply to the justice system at all. When it does, the system would be broken in my view.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I think the word and concept should not apply to the justice system at all. When it does, the system would be broken in my view.

    I understand where you are going with this. My deal is to be consistent with what one calls revenge. If capital punishment is little more than revenge, so also is incarceration--whether you view the enforcement of a social contract or retaliation for a crime.

    Often times people suggest that capital punishment is just antiquated revenge and I'm like, "And other punishment isn't?"

    As for me, I'm not 100% sure if I really see punishment.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I understand where you are going with this.
    No, you don't seem to.
    My deal is to be consistent with what one calls revenge.
    I can empathize.
    If capital punishment is little more than revenge, so also is incarceration--whether you view the enforcement of a social contract or retaliation for a crime.
    See, this is why I don't think you understand 'where I'm going'. I never said capital punishment was little more than revenge. Revenge implies motivation which doesn't have to be tied to sanctions.
    Often times people suggest that capital punishment is just antiquated revenge and I'm like, "And other punishment isn't?"
    Apparently so often that you see it when it isn't necessarily there.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #67  
    Just a short mark:
    I think capital punishment was cancelled in the majority of countries in vain. I think some people (rapists, maniacs, robbers, etc) must be punished accordingly to their deeds. Often with death penalty...

    Some democratic rules suck...
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    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by HostV View Post
    Just a short mark:
    I think capital punishment was cancelled in the majority of countries in vain.
    (My emphasis)

    Do you have any evidence to back that up? I note, for instance that the murder rate in the USA is higher than most other comparable countries that have taken this step.
    I think some people (rapists, maniacs, robbers, etc) must be punished accordingly to their deeds. Often with death penalty...
    "Maniacs" - you want to punish people who are by definition ill?
    "Robbers" - have you ever read "Les Miserables"?
    "Rapists" - we've always been real tough on them!
    Some democratic rules suck...

    Only when the majority disagree with me!
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    (My emphasis)

    Do you have any evidence to back that up? I note, for instance that the murder rate in the USA is higher than most other comparable countries that have taken this step.
    Stephen Colbert coined the term "truthiness", which means that something must be true if it feels true. In this case, it doesn't seem to matter if capital punishment actually meets its intended goals - as long as it makes people feel like it is.
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  10. #70  
    It may not slow them down very often; however, once dead, they are no longer a problem. Alive means they can either escape or be paroled and once that happens, they are back in the hunting game. These animals really do not deserve pity, they sure did not show it to their victim(s).

    Why is it so important for the US to follow the steps of other countries?
  11. #71  
    Why is it OK to murder someone for committing a crime but wrong to help someone kill themselves to end his/her suffering?

    Sorry... A bit OT but this is the OT forum...
    Grant Smith
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  12. #72  
    It is the other end of the spectrum. The taking of one's own life is the ultimate sin.

    Also, have you looked up the definition of murder? You are throwing terms around that just do not fit. Take the nonsense out.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is the other end of the spectrum. The taking of one's own life is the ultimate sin.
    If you believe that mythos, sure, but that is not for the law to decide. I, personally, do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Also, have you looked up the definition of murder? You are throwing terms around that just do not fit.
    From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder (I left out the irrelevant definitions, pay close attention to number 5):

    1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
    4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
    5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
    It sounds like killing someone by lethal injection, hanging, stoning, drowning, electrocution, firing squad or by any other means with deliberate malice and forethought would be murder and that is what the death penalty is all about; murder in response to murder sanctioned by the state. Yes, I know what murder is.

    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Take the nonsense out.
    You, first.

    And on a side note, killing humanely, IE assisted suicide for someone who is terminally ill would not be defined as murder. Interesting, ay?
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    It sounds like killing someone by lethal injection, hanging, stoning, drowning, electrocution, firing squad or by any other means with deliberate malice and forethought would be murder and that is what the death penalty is all about; murder in response to murder sanctioned by the state. Yes, I know what murder is.
    You want to keep them in jail for life?

    I say kill the child rapists dead... or maybe we should let them out and move all of them into your neighborhood.

    And on a side note, killing humanely, IE assisted suicide for someone who is terminally ill would not be defined as murder. Interesting, ay?

    Considering how far off topic you want to go, I'd say it is not interesting at all... not to me anyway. lol
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  15. #75  
    There is too great a chance these animals will get out to commit their acts again. Either kill them or make the law so tight that a judge with an agenda cannot alter the law.

    Death by the sanction of law is not murder. Your definition takes it totally out of context for what has been the standard of civilization since man has acted en masse.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    [...] It sounds like killing someone by lethal injection [...] with deliberate malice and forethought would be murder [...]

    And on a side note, killing humanely, IE assisted suicide for someone who is terminally ill would not be defined as murder. Interesting, ay?
    It's only interesting from the standpoint that it requires more mental gymnastics to separate those two concepts in the way that you are than in the standard way.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It may not slow them down very often; however, once dead, they are no longer a problem. Alive means they can either escape or be paroled and once that happens, they are back in the hunting game. These animals really do not deserve pity, they sure did not show it to their victim(s).

    Why is it so important for the US to follow the steps of other countries?
    Perhaps because they are doing something that is obviously more effective (based on their crime rates, and despite the lack of capital punishment) than our own policies?
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  18. #78  
    Are they? or are they going undetected or ignored? What is legal and fine in other countries is not legal and fine in the US. We have different standards in both legal and moral issues.

    What works in other countries: universal health care? Look again and unfortunately the US is getting ready to try socialized health care. The list is long and frankly, I am not in to a "feel good" society belief that removes moral and personal responsibility.

    Also, when one legalizes an act that was formerly illegal, that does decrease the crime rate. I am definitely not in favor of legalizing drugs as has been done in other countries. For that to happen here, the court system would have to do it, as the people through the legislative branch would never let it happen. Many things in the US are legal only because of the court system. When placed in front of the people, the true conservative nature of the US comes to light.
  19. #79  
    I'm fairly certain that murder is universally illegal. However, most countries don't have the death penalty, yet the murder rate is lower in many countries than in the US. There really isn't a connection between the death penalty and reducing murders.

    The legalization of drugs is a whole other issue; however, many would argue that if we didn't have so many in prison for non-violent drug offenses, we could support more drug treatment and have prison space for those more violent offenses. (We currently have more than 1% of our population in prison for the first time in history).
  20. tirk's Avatar
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    #80  
    OK then, what about miscarriages of justice? They do happen in the USA, like everywhere else. What do you call it when the State kills an innocent person?
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