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  1. #41  
    Being a gun owner with 3 kids, each gun had a trigger lock installed and each gun was locked in a cabinet that was exceedingly secure and there was only one key - which I kept locked in a combination safe. No one had access when the kids were young but me.

    Prison means there is a chance of freedom. This type of animal deserves nothing better than paying the ultimate price for the ultimate humiliation he perpetrated.
  2. #42  
    In general population as a known child abuser is a greater punishment. I won't spell out what I mean.

    Death is an easy way out.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Prison means there is a chance of freedom. This type of animal deserves nothing better than paying the ultimate price for the ultimate humiliation he perpetrated.
    Agreed
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  4. #44  
    Why just child rapists?

    Why not include folks who beat up children regularly, scarring them for life?

    We can discuss how many slaps a day crosses the threshold into death penalty.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Why just child rapists?

    Why not include folks who beat up children regularly, scarring them for life?

    We can discuss how many slaps a day crosses the threshold into death penalty.
    Yes... And why not rapists in general?? I mean, perpetrating the 'ultimate humiliation' on an adult isn't any different in my opinion, or are we prejudiced against adults, too?
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  6. #46  
    I feel "ultimately" humiliated whenever my boss shouts at me.

    Off with his head!
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  7. #47  
    Presumably the question of, "Why not adult vicitms of rape" was intended to be rather facetious in nature; as such, my response is as follows.


    Predjudice? No. Rather discriminative? Yes.

    The effect on an adult who is raped is quite different than that of a child who is raped or molested. I would say cognitive abilities such as coping and resilience (speaking to getting back to a normal life) are enough to call it uneven and worthy of seperate approaches.

    Of the scores of studies regarding adult sex workers (strippers, prostitutes, etc); there are few (if any) that report a correlation to adult sex crimes. On the other hand, there are significant correlations to child sex abuse and/or child abuse.

    Why not include folks who beat up children regularly, scarring them for life?

    Because sexual abuse and physical abuse are in completely seperate categories and result in differing outcomes. According to Wikipedia:

    Concerning psychological harm, "the risk of harm is greater if the abuser is a relative, if the abuse involves intercourse or attempted intercourse, or if threats or force are used."

    Actual article cited found HERE.

    Furthermore . . .

    In a 1998 review of related literature, Martin and Fleming, state "The hypothesis advanced in this paper is that, in most cases, the fundamental damage inflicted by child sexual abuse is due to the child's developing capacities for trust, intimacy, agency and sexuality, and that many of the mental health problems of adult life associated with histories of child sexual abuse are second-order effects."

    Actual article cited found HERE.

    Finally,

    "The effects of child abuse vary, depending on its type. A 2006 study found that childhood emotional and sexual abuse were strongly related to adult depressive symptoms, while exposure to verbal abuse and witnessing of domestic violence had a moderately strong association, and physical abuse a moderate one. For depression, experiencing more than two kinds of abuse exerted synergetically stronger symptoms. Sexual abuse was particularly deleterious in its intrafamilial form, for symptoms of depression, anxiety, dissociation, and limbic irritability. Childhood verbal abuse had a stronger association with anger-hostility than any other type of abuse studied, and was second only to emotional abuse in its relationship with dissociative symptoms."

    Actual article cited found HERE.

    (NOTE: Actual article notes that combined variants of abuse result in greater trauma than any single form and that verbal abuse along with witnessed domestic violence netted greater trauma than did sexual abuse.)

    I make that note but also note a vast difference between sexual abuse and other forms (emotional, physical and neglect). Sexual abuse can be perpetrated by persons outside of the immediate family, or family all together (which creates somewhat of a more difficult task in detection and/or prevention).
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  8. #48  
    My post about those who beat the crap out of kids on a daily basis is serious. We are talking about broken bones, burning, locking up in closets, starving...

    Some of these eventually cross the line and the child gets killed. Why should a perpetrator who comes close to that line not suffer the death penalty?

    I'm not saying that sexual and physical abuse are the same thing. However, I don't know why one would excuse egregious cases of physical abuse when compared to sexual abuse.

    Not wanting the "ultimate" punishment for such physical abuse (and the mental abuse that also results) is sending a message of relative acceptance of the situation.
    Last edited by aprasad; 06/28/2008 at 04:55 PM.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  9. #49  
    I'm sorry but I don't believe any of that!! Physical abuse and domestic violence are EXTREMELY harmful to children!!! And your assumption that adult rape is not as traumatic is also BS!!! Obviously a child is a more helpless victim, but many adults DO NOT "cope" well with being raped!!

    P.S. This was a response to DL.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 06/28/2008 at 04:32 PM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva
    I'm sorry but I don't believe any of that!! Physical abuse and domestic violence are EXTREMELY harmful to children!!! And your assumption that adult rape is not as traumatic is also BS!!! Obviously a child is a more helpless victim, but many adults DO NOT "cope" well with being raped!!

    P.S. This was a response to DL.
    This is what I said, about sexual abuse regarding adults and children:

    The effect on an adult who is raped is quite different than that of a child who is raped or molested. I would say cognitive abilities such as coping and resilience (speaking to getting back to a normal life) are enough to call it uneven and worthy of seperate approaches.

    1: I NEVER stated, assumed or otherwise implied that adult sexual abuse was less traumatic than child sexual abuse. I did suggest that child sexual abuse tends to have much more dramatic effect than does adult sexual abuse. That was based on the fact that children are still developing much of their mental capacity and are often subject to longer peiods of sexual abuse as opposed to adults.

    2: I NEVER stated, assumed or otherwise implied that adults cope well with being raped.

    The point was there exists a major difference in the aftermath between adults who are sexually abused and children. Furthermore, that difference was significant enough to warrant completely different approaches regarding punishment.

    The purpose of pointing out sex workers and the correlation between sexual abuse was to note that children who are sexually abused quite often grow up and continue to subject themselves to abuse--however, this becomes more of a self-inflicted abuse as opposed to abuse by someone else.

    Next, you can dismiss this all you want; however, I believe I aptly cited actual research and studies as opposed to just saying, "I believe" this or that. If you have any evidence suggesting or stating otherwise, I do welcome it.


    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    My post about those who beat the crap out of kids on a daily basis is serious. We are talking about broken bones, burning, locking up in closets, starving...

    Some of these eventually cross the line and the child gets killed. Why should a perpetrator who comes close to that line not suffer the death penalty?

    I'm not saying that sexual and physical abuse are the same thing. However, I don't know why one would excuse egregious cases of physical abuse when compared to physical abuse.

    Not wanting the "ultimate" punishment for such physical abuse (and the mental abuse that also results) is sending a message of relative acceptance of the situation.
    You're right, there is an inconsistency here and I'm really hesitant to correct it (by including physical abuse). I'm hesitant on the grounds that it seems to me there is a much greater risk of physical abuse going unnoticed than is sexual abuse. I have two reasons:
    1. Sexual abuse can be within the family and outside of the family (priest, neighbor, babysitter, etc).
    2. Sexual abuse doesn't necessarily leave obvious signs (bruises, broken bones, burns, etc).
    I realize that even this is sort of problematic for me, as I am effectively accepting a certain type of punishment not only on the grounds of offense, but the likely hood of that offense being discovered.

    To be honest, if someone was brought before a jury and convicted of seriously abusing a child (broken bones, burns, etc) I might not even flinch if the death penalty was presented and accepted.

    However, we are speaking about child sex abuse and not child physical abuse. The fact remains that both are different on various grounds and actually need reprisal determined on their own merit.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Presumably the question of, "Why not adult vicitms of rape" was intended to be rather facetious in nature
    Quite right. It was also meant to point out that everyone seems to be forgetting that rape is rape regardless of age (other than statutory rape-type bulls***).

    Lastly, killing people for rape would probably be more just than killing them for murder but unjust none the less. State-sanctioned murder is still nothing more than petty revenge and, well, murder.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    This is what I said, about sexual abuse regarding adults and children:

    The effect on an adult who is raped is quite different than that of a child who is raped or molested. I would say cognitive abilities such as coping and resilience (speaking to getting back to a normal life) are enough to call it uneven and worthy of seperate approaches.

    1: I NEVER stated, assumed or otherwise implied that adult sexual abuse was less traumatic than child sexual abuse. I did suggest that child sexual abuse tends to have much more dramatic effect than does adult sexual abuse. That was based on the fact that children are still developing much of their mental capacity and are often subject to longer peiods of sexual abuse as opposed to adults.

    2: I NEVER stated, assumed or otherwise implied that adults cope well with being raped.

    The point was there exists a major difference in the aftermath between adults who are sexually abused and children. Furthermore, that difference was significant enough to warrant completely different approaches regarding punishment.

    The purpose of pointing out sex workers and the correlation between sexual abuse was to note that children who are sexually abused quite often grow up and continue to subject themselves to abuse--however, this becomes more of a self-inflicted abuse as opposed to abuse by someone else.

    Next, you can dismiss this all you want; however, I believe I aptly cited actual research and studies as opposed to just saying, "I believe" this or that. If you have any evidence suggesting or stating otherwise, I do welcome it.
    You contradicted yourself several times the way I see it.

    As for evidence. People I've known of who went through rape. Although this isn't really the board to post all that detail on. But you can try convincing them if you ever meet any victims of rape(not people in some distant case study) that as adults the aftermath isn't as dramatic. It may not be as blatant as with children, but the effects are there. I can see where you're going because children are more helpless than adults. but I can tell you the adults often end up feeling almost as helpless, powerless, confused, depressed, etc. They do not act out as children do(since that's often the only way children can cope), but it certainly makes them reevaluate things. Trust becomes an issue along with feelings of less freedom and independence. Many need counseling. All because of the feeling of being violated.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. #53  
    My point in discussing extreme physical abuse is that when you sanction the death penalty for crimes other then murder, then the demarcation line becomes very gray and subject to individual attitudes on what is a heinous crime.

    I respect those who oppose the death penalty under any circumstance. At least they are consistent.

    My problem with the death penalty is that it will cause (and has caused) some innocents to get the ultimate punishment, for which there is no redress or compensation. Just look at the people on the death row getting exonerated by DNA evidence.

    And that is NOT evidence that the system works. Just because we corrected a few mistakes, doesn't mean that there are none thet don't get detected in time.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  14. #54  
    My apology for taking the thread a bit off course. I just didn't like the way other forms of abuse and rape are getting downplayed. I guess I may have seen too much in this world to know that this downplaying is just plain wrong.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #55  
    Stuff happens and the world really does not come to an end, though it may upset us if it does not. Placing this type of animal in prison sounds good; however, good behavior means time off. If the animal is placed in an area away from the general population (this is happening now), then the animal is safe from harm. When this animal gets out on parole or whatever, this animal is again free to roam. This animal moves in to your neighborhood, does not register if he is required, notices your child and starts the routine. Since you have no idea who this person is...

    Why take the chance the animal is cured? Even if it does not deter, it definitely removes the specific animal from the scene and that means the animal cannot do it again.
  16. #56  
    It seems to me that there is some degree of talking past each other here. There are obviously differing opinions on whether the government's role is purely punitive or should be preventative from the standpoint of recidivism. Personally, I lean towards the latter. The government is not supposed to be in the revenge business.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It seems to me that there is some degree of talking past each other here. There are obviously differing opinions on whether the government's role is purely punitive or should be preventative from the standpoint of recidivism. Personally, I lean towards the latter. The government is not supposed to be in the revenge business.
    True, but as a state actor government is in the retribution business. It’s a duty.

    When one person kills another, there is
    immediate revulsion at the nature of the
    crime. But in a time so short as to seem
    indecent to the members of the personal
    family, the dead person ceases to exist as an
    identifiable figure. To those individuals in
    the community of good will and empathy,
    warmth and compassion, only one of the key
    actors in the drama remains with whom to
    commiserate—and that is always the
    criminal. The dead person ceases to be a
    part of everyday reality, ceases to exist. She
    is only a figure in a historic event. We
    inevitably turn away from the past, toward
    the ongoing reality. And the ongoing reality
    is the criminal; trapped, anxious, now
    helpless, isolated, often badgered and
    bewildered. He usurps the compassion that
    is justly his victim’s due. He will steal his
    victim’s moral constituency along with her
    life.
    ***
    The Killing of Bonnie Garland, by Willard Gaylin

    Although this passage deals with murder, child rape is just as heinous since you have the mental element of intent. I really don’t see the benefit of child rapists remaining in society. Incarceration for this heinous act serves no purpose
    I must say though, I was rather surprised by this decision. Given the conservative leanings of this court, the cynic in me ( I battle with him daily) wonders if this was just some red meat to get conservatives excited about the upcoming election. Nah.....can’t be, could it?
    Last edited by Iago; 06/30/2008 at 03:27 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  18. #58  
    Looks like I'm going to have to spell out what I mean about prison.

    Any known child abuser in prison has a good chance of being attacked by other prisoners. He will not have an easy ride in prison. It's been said before that there is no lower a criminal, even among criminals, than child abusers and also possibly rapists. Even if the guards do try to protect him, someone can get at him. I think they're supposed to isolate child abusers for this very reason, but guards can't(or likely won't if they know why he's in there) be everywhere at every time.

    Guards and prisoners don't like child abusers any more than the rest of us do, and they have a way of exacting Karma in a way that the death penalty really cannot. The death penalty offers an easy controlled punishment. Death is an easy way out for child rapists IMO.

    I do agree though, that death by the state really only should apply to murder, since someone did indeed die. If the state starts executing for other reasons, it'll be a bad slippery slope starting up.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw
    Quite right. It was also meant to point out that everyone seems to be forgetting that rape is rape regardless of age (other than statutory rape-type bulls***).

    Lastly, killing people for rape would probably be more just than killing them for murder but unjust none the less. State-sanctioned murder is still nothing more than petty revenge and, well, murder.
    I haven’t forgotten anything; I not only recognize that rape is indeed rape, but at the same time there are variances when it comes to the aftermath. Generally speaking, children tend to suffer more and longer simply because they often lack beneficial cognitive capacities and in many cases, it may never be reported or discovered.

    And yes, it indeed is revenge; then again, so is incarceration, fines, and community service. ANY punishment doled out by the state is revenge.

    As far as murder? According to the law and how it defines murder, you sir, are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva
    You contradicted yourself several times the way I see it.
    Not even close.

    I can see where you're going because children are more helpless than adults.
    Apparently not as you keep accusing me of downplaying the level of trauma an adult receives—which isn’t even what I am doing. I am comparing the level of cognitive and emotional ability a child has to work with as compared to adults and drawing my conclusion. I asked for evidence that contradicted the following statement (which is the basis for the entire argument):

    The point was there exists a major difference in the aftermath between adults who are sexually abused and children. Furthermore, that difference was significant enough to warrant completely different approaches regarding punishment.

    You have simply not provided it (and no, people you know is NOT evidence to the contrary here).

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    My point in discussing extreme physical abuse is that when you sanction the death penalty for crimes other then murder, then the demarcation line becomes very gray and subject to individual attitudes on what is a heinous crime.
    To a degree, I agree with you. On the other hand, when you rule out the death penalty—except in cases of murder—you automatically have categorized crimes not ending with death as lesser crimes. In other words, you have effectively taken the position that no matter what a person does to another person, as long as the other person remains alive, they have not committed the ultimate crime. I see that as a grave mistake.

    My problem with the death penalty is that it will cause (and has caused) some innocents to get the ultimate punishment, for which there is no redress or compensation. Just look at the people on the death row getting exonerated by DNA evidence.
    Agreed, once you’re dead, you’re dead; my problem here is the inconsistency employed. If you are on trial for theft and I for murder, any judgment against me (using this principle) will be based primarily on my crime and partially on the state’s potential to make a mistake. However, judgment against you will be solely on the merit of your crime.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    And yes, it indeed is revenge; then again, so is incarceration, fines, and community service. ANY punishment doled out by the state is revenge.
    How so? The state is not directly harmed in most crimes, so viewing most sanctions as 'revenge' requires some significant contortions and projection of emotion onto 'the system'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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