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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    DA, very absurd. We even let them have sex in prison - that is surely the sign of civilization. Punishment? Nothing like those you compare this country to. And do not compare the US and its system of justice to Europe, especially when considering those wonderful people that killed millions of their own people.

    The death penalty may not be a deterrent, but frankly, neither is prison. Let them out of prison to do it again? They are "reborn," cured? No. They need to be permanently removed.
    Absolutely right. Interesting point about those in Europe who've graced millions of their own with such shining examples of civility.

    Its funny how often we hear criticism from those nations regarding our system of justice being too harsh yet looking back at THEIR practices one wouldn't think they'd be so quick to point any fingers.
  2. #22  
    The US has its problems; however, no other nation has ever given what this country has done and given. We give, give, give and ask very little in return. Look at what we did in Europe. Look at what we did in Japan. Our military, our people gave the ultimate sacrifice. People complain about oil and why we went to Iraq and now that it has been announced which countries will be drilling in Iraq, please notice that the US is not represented to a massive degree. Did Vietnam do anything to help us in Iraq? The US is not making anything of consequence from the oil in Iraq.

    When disaster strikes in the world, who is there? The USA is. We send supplies, assistance, an air craft carrier with enormous humanitarian capabilities. Did France send an air craft carrier? Russia? China? Look at the amount of money this country and its citizens have given for AIDS in Africa. We assist in rebuilding. We help our enemies (remember the Chinese winter?), the floods? As a country and a people, we give before asked to give. The "this country is bad" being floated by the far left is just plain wrong. It really bites that in a few years the incandescent light bulb will be gone and replaced by a light bulb from China that is fraught with environmental consequences.
  3. tirk's Avatar
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    That's what's so amusing with some folks. They will preach to others about how "uncivilized" it is to hand a remorseless murderer a well-deserved punishment of the harshest degree. Yet, if someone broke into THEIR house, pulled their girlfriend, wife or daughter out of their beds and began terrorizing them brutally, you can bet their behavior or attitudes at THAT moment would in no way resemble the haughty, self-righteous tones you see around here so often.
    Self-righteous? Haughty?? Look at the plank in your own eye.

    Your attitude to women is telling too.
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    And do not compare the US and its system of justice to Europe, especially when considering those wonderful people that killed millions of their own people.
    So you're actually using the Nazis to justify your views on capital punishment? Or are you just trying to be offensive to all Europeans?
    Last edited by tirk; 06/26/2008 at 05:17 AM. Reason: Calmed down a bit!
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  5. #25  
    Hello there,

    In my personal opinion i say that there is a value for this rule. Because child ****** will be mentally ill people and they should be treated well. But they must be place in front of law for further punishments.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    1) How quick you are to mischaracterize a situation. Its called conviction, not aggression. Please. They are just as likely to strong arm an opposing viewpoint as anyone else in this forum. Dont pull that on me. Reasonable people can disagree, but the problem is that their stance on this issue is anything but reasonable considering what children endure after being raped relentlessly by such cretins. it would just as easy to characterize THEM as bullies when they rail away at republican foreign policy or any other topic concerning GW in OT. I simply have a strong opinion towards this - as do a great majority I might add. It is an important issue. The bullying claim is baseless and has nothing to do with it.
    People expressed an opinion, and you immediately said that there was something wrong with them. Nobody here has "railed away" at anyone....except you, of course. Conviction doesn't explain away abusive behavior.

    2)Hmm, maybe if you simply think about what they are advocating here, you might come to realize the gravity of what is at stake. I think YOU are the one exaggerating here. What IS abusive is letting child rapists back out on the streets to molest MORE children. What IS abusive is allowing murderers out of prison after 5-10 years so that they may kill MORE innocent victims. You need to make the distinction between what is truly abusive to society and what you are simply trying to spin as such. Get a grip.
    Im curious. Would you be as quick to cry abuse when news report describing the rape and murder of a toddler by a repeat offender?
    You'll note that I have not offered my opinion on the issue itself (other than providing the fact that it hasn't been found to be a deterrent), merely your way of treating people with opposing opinions. However, your apparent need to bully others on this thread made you immediately launch into attack mode.

    4) Well does the data show how successful keeping them alive in prison has been over the years? Does the data show how many times these repeat offenders get out and only kill more victims? Does the data show how many of these criminals actually rehabilitate and become useful members of society after raping multiple children? I think protecting these offenders from capital punishment may make SOME folks feel better, but the data shows that THAT certainly isnt a deterrent either. In fact its worse, because not only is it not a deterrent, but its also a larger drain on our tax money.
    As I said, I'm not arguing the points of the issue - reasonable people can have a reasoned discussion about issues like this. I'm merely pointing out that your approach doesn't serve to advance the discussion.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/26/2008 at 11:57 AM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  7. #27  
    Justice cries out for equality in the consequences for crime.

    A perpetrator of a crime should never wind up better off than the victim.
    Where's the justice there?
    No, the inhumanity of the acts involved here require the death penalty, and
    if not...perhaps a prison rape per day for the rest of his life might do.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Death penalty for child molesters? I say yes after the third time. I know, three times already... but I've seen some cases as in 18-year-old have sex with girlfriend of 16 and gets put on the molester list due to the law. I don't see how someone can have three "accidents" or "misunderstandings about the law."
    One thing to keep in mind is that this law specifically would not have applied to your example. It's not a statutory rape law. It only applies to children under 12. I can't see how one could characterize that as 'an accident' in any circumstance.
    There are very few things (let alone people) in this world I'd harm. I talk a hard game, but I'm a softy.
    To some extent, I'm the opposite. I am tolerant almost to a fault, however, once you 'cross the line' with me, I feel no reservations about the consequences.
    I'll rescue a spider if it is in the house and put him out.
    Spiders are one of the only things in this world I don't have tolerance for.
    A child molester I'd not lose any sleep being his or her executioner, if the gov't needed me to fill that role.

    I'd rather have the death penalty than pay $20,000 to $30,000 per year to keep the guy/gal in food, clothes, and tv.
    I'm generally against the death penalty (more due to the flaws in our justice system than anything else), but this would be one instance where it doesn't bother me if sufficient evidence is there.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #29  
    can we please simma down in here a bit -- getting too personal and aggressive in some earlier posts.
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    #30  
    While reading new posts today, I couldn't help but noticing the thread titled "Gas Prices Going Thru The Roof....Who Is To Blame??? How Do We Fix It?" ... Perhaps someone could create a vehicle that would run of the remains of these sick bast... Oops, as pervious poster said, time to tame it a bit.

    All I can say is that there is no need to have a person demented enough to molest a child using up valuable oxygen and contributing to global warming.

    This has been the most time I think I've ever spent on a post - as well as the most times I've deleted everything I've typed. My emotions regarding this topic are overwhelming and I can't tame them enough to put in a public forum. These people should never have the opportunity to even see a child from a distance again - and I don't my tax dollars wasted on their incarceration or "rehabilitation".
  11. #31  
    I posted the following in another forum on the exact same discussion; felt it would be worthy here.

    For those who feel that punishment should fit the crime (what I call, "proportionists"):


    Of course that isn't even broaching another sad issue with this foolish concept of punishment-crime equality: diminished value regarding innocence. Think of it this way:

    crime is to innocence as punishment is to guilt

    In essence you create equality between the crime and the punishment and therefore have created equality between innocence and guilt. The problem is, the innocent are not deserving of the crime whereas the guilty are deserving of the punishment. As such, it makes perfect sense to create some inequality between the innocent and the guilty by subjecting them to punishment more harsh than the crime.


    AND

    You can even take a more mathematical approach to the problem. In essence punishment (p) may be viewed as an attempt to either rectify or compensate for innocence (i) by evaluating the level of the crime (c) and guilt (g). So our equation would look like so:

    p - (c + g ) = i

    Presumably, innocence is not a fluctuation value as punishment, crime and guilt are, so let’s attach the numerical value of zero (though any number works well). Assume values between 1 and 10 for crime and guilt (say speeding at 1) then we have the following:

    p – (1 + 1) = 0

    For the record, when assuming levels of crime and guilt, they are distinct in the sense that some crimes may be committed, but the level of guilt need be reduced to compensate for mitigating circumstances. For example, a man and his wife are hiking and she is bit by a poisonous snake; he needs to get her to a hospital fast so he puts her in the car and drives excessively fast to the hospital. On the way, an officer pulls him over for speeding. Thus, we might have:

    p – (1 + 0) = 0

    The innocent could be considered others on the road who may have been endangered by his excessive speed; however, his guilt is reduced to accordingly compensate not for his blatant disregard for the law, but a fear that motivates him to breach the law (when he might otherwise not do so).


    For those concerned with the notion that even one innocent person executed under the death penalty (infallibility of the justice system):

    IF the outcome were truly the concern, then we should not let criminals go when law enforcement breaks the law and finds evidence of guilt.

    If an officer just randomly breaks into your home and finds you stabbing your neighbor--unless the officer can provide evidence that their efforts were in compliance with the law, you go free and ALL evidence is rendered moot.

    If the outcome were the concern, to be consistent, one would be forced to reprimand the officer for breaching the law and still admit the evidence against you.


    For those who view an innocent person being executed is tantamount to an "unfair" trial:

    So then a man murdering his wife, who is caught in the act illegally and is accordingly set free does not receive a fair trial either?

    That really seems like odd logic to hold on to, that a trial is deed fair only by the legitimacy of the outcome and not the process by which it was conducted. I suppose if a man kills his wife--yet is caught in the act illegally--gets a fair trial even if all of the witnesses lie in court in order to garner a conviction.

    In other words, in order to be consistent, you are backing yourself into a corner where you would need to agree that the end justifies the means.



    I think that about covers everything.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  12. #32  
    Sorry about the oddity of formatting here (excessive distinct quotations); it wasn't supposed to be that way, but I copied and pasted . . .
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  13. #33  
    Not at all. What offensive thing did I state? Fact is what I stated, if you take offense to fact, I am sorry. When someone brings up a fact about the US, I do not consider it offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    So you're actually using the Nazis to justify your views on capital punishment? Or are you just trying to be offensive to all Europeans?
  14. #34  
    Tirk, we disagree here - his attitude is one of defending those who cannot defend themselves. Failure to meet aggression with aggression leads to chaos and the loss of liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Self-righteous? Haughty?? Look at the plank in your own eye.

    Your attitude to women is telling too.
  15. #35  
    I was reading a thread on this subject on another forum I visit and someone asked a question that I thought was interesting, the question was if child molestation is made a capital crime, what would prevent a molester from killing his victim to avoid being caught? because killing the victim would eliminate the only witness to the crime, and if you're already facing the death penalty there's no reason not to do it, because nothing worse can be done to you.

    Anyway, I like the idea that one person jokingly put on the other forum, just tattoo the words "Child Molester" on his forehead and put him in the general prison population, and the problem will be solved.
    Last edited by kamizuno; 06/26/2008 at 09:03 PM.
    garinballbarin
  16. #36  
    That would also work in some areas where aggression is met with aggression. I doubt it would work in...
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by kamizuno View Post
    I was reading a thread on this subject on another forum I visit and someone asked a question that I thought was interesting, the question was if child molestation is made a capital crime, what would prevent a molester from killing his victim to avoid being caught? because killing the victim would eliminate the only witness to the crime, and if you're already facing the death penalty there's no reason not to do it, because nothing worse can be done to you.
    This assumes that most molestations are a single act (i.e. do the deed once and move on to the next), when the exact opposite is far more typical. Also, what percentage of cases are won simply on the testimony of the child vs. other forensic evidence?
    Anyway, I like the idea that one person jokingly put on the other forum, just tattoo the words "Child Molester" on his forehead and put him in the general prison population, and the problem will be solved.
    That seems more cruel and unusual to me.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #38  
    Toby, what these animals do is the ultimate in humiliation and damage that could possibly be done to anyone. Cruel and unusual? So what. However, with the method described of putting him in the general prison population, it still not the same. Exacting punishment at that point is a personal thing, not a society thing. Punishment given by society holds more authority that one-on-one that the liberal left is so against.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Toby, what these animals do is the ultimate in humiliation and damage that could possibly be done to anyone.
    That's really irrelevant to the point.
    Cruel and unusual? So what.
    If they consider the death penalty cruel and unusual, how likely is it that inciting daily rape and/or beatings as well as branding with a scarlet A is going to hold up?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #40  
    The reason for that ruling was stated that if a victim hasn't died, it's going too far to issue the death penalty. I can see where they're coming from.

    However the good news is for those of you who don't agree, you can now probably shoot the child abuser in your home if you have a gun. I have mixed feelings about that ruling since guns in homes sometimes create more problems than solve them. Such as the 3 yr. old kid who shot himself dead recently around here, from a gun in the home. Or the guys who keep getting shot by cops because they think a gun is present when there may not be.

    P.S. I didn't read the whole thread yet. I have to go out for a while, but I'll be back. But I will say that honestly, I think the best punishment for child abusers is to place them in general population with it known that they are a child abuser. That's WORSE than the death penalty!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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