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  1. #961  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I don't think the distinction is too subtle: I can think that someone's decision is honestly wrong, and that I would have made a different decision, without thinking that the person acted inappropriately.
    Huh? I'm not sure what this has to do with my query to Ben?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #962  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    By taking this tack, you legitimize all of Ben's "well look at Obama/Biden..." responses to criticisms of McCain.
    Uh, no... I don't.

    What it shows is the scary side of our current President.

    I don't think you fully grasp what I was stating....
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  3. #963  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Uh, no... I don't.
    Uh, yes... you do.
    What it shows is the scary side of our current President.
    In response to a criticism of Obama.
    I don't think you fully grasp what I was stating....
    LOL
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #964  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    LOL
    Yes, you are right... it is funny...
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  5. #965  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It amounts to the timing of the response - will Obama react immediately or will he wait and see what public opinion is by watching the polls. When he reacts, will it be a Bill Clinton type of response with a cruise missile strike against an aspirin factory or will it be an invasion, something with teeth to it.
    Yes, we should have something with teeth on it....after all, our last 8 years of response has been so effective. We should definitely use foreign policy as a demonstration of our collective testosterone level.

    After all, we don't want to go back to the "Bill Clinton type of responses", when we had the respect of the world. Face it, if Colin Powell thinks that Barak would respond in a more appropriate manner than McCain, that holds a lot of weight.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  6. #966  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It amounts to the timing of the response - will Obama react immediately or will he wait and see what public opinion is by watching the polls. When he reacts, will it be a Bill Clinton type of response with a cruise missile strike against an aspirin factory or will it be an invasion, something with teeth to it.
    How about we just go take care of the original situation(Afghanistan) instead of looking for excuses to bow out again (which it seems EVERYONE is doing)?
  7. #967  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    How about we just go take care of the original situation(Afghanistan) instead of looking for excuses to bow out again (which it seems EVERYONE is doing)?
    Because thats not teethy enough......we must be teethier!
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  8. #968  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    When he reacts, will it be a Bill Clinton type of response with a cruise missile strike against an aspirin factory or will it be an invasion, something with teeth to it.
    or perhaps a Reagen move of going into Lebanon and then cowardly turning tail over the bodies of 241 servicemen when attacked?

    Also Clinton attacked a factory misidentified by the CIA; Bush attacked a country, killed a few hundred thousand innocent civilians, a few thousand of our soldiers, destroyed the US world leadership, and our economy, based on faulty intelligence. I go for the aspirin factory and a night watchman wiith a broken leg over the biggest debacle in US history.
  9. #969  
    Here is a short article about Joe Biden that may interest our more liberal friends: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433314,00.html
  10. #970  
    Please read the entire article, it even talks about the greatest fact site in the whole wide world: factcheck.org.
  11. #971  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I go for the aspirin factory and a night watchman wiith a broken leg over the biggest debacle in US history.
    Hmm...

    Vietnam: 9 years, over 58,000 KIA. Estimated between 500,000 and 2 million Vietnamese casualties. Started by a Democrat, acting on faulty intelligence of the Gulf of Tonkin incident (Source: Declassified NSA document).

    Iraq: 5 years, over 4,000 KIA. Estimates are widely varied, and highly disputed - but somewhere between 150,000-1.2 million Iraqi casualties. Started by a Republican, acting on faulty intelligence.

    I don't know that I'd call Iraq the biggest debacle in US History, although it is certainly up there.
    "Whenever I feel like exercise I lie down until the feeling passes."
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins


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  12. #972  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Here is a short article about Joe Biden that may interest our more liberal friends: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433314,00.html
    OK, it isn't a news article, it is an OPED by an ultra right wing guy who is most well known for recommending deregulation of the capital markets and Wall street a year before the implosion! He is misrepresenting Biden and his conclusions are not shared even by most Republicans. Posting those kind of polemics from the extreme of the spectrum is equivalent ot posting a Kos piece on Palin as authoritative.
  13. #973  
    Quote Originally Posted by phrogpilot73 View Post
    Hmm...

    Vietnam: 9 years, over 58,000 KIA. Estimated between 500,000 and 2 million Vietnamese casualties. Started by a Democrat, acting on faulty intelligence of the Gulf of Tonkin incident (Source: Declassified NSA document).

    Iraq: 5 years, over 4,000 KIA. Estimates are widely varied, and highly disputed - but somewhere between 150,000-1.2 million Iraqi casualties. Started by a Republican, acting on faulty intelligence.

    I don't know that I'd call Iraq the biggest debacle in US History, although it is certainly up there.
    vietnam was catastrophic -- and an apropriate analogy.

    The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was known AT THE TIME OF ITS OCCURRENCE -- to be not as it was described.

    I have myself talked to Daniel Ellsberg at some length about how much was known in the Pentagon, the CIA, and the White House in the hours after the intial reports came in. The Admiral and captains of the ships involved, on their own intiative, withdrew their intial reports about the "incident". Irrespective of the fact that there was no N. Vietnamese attack on that naval squadron that night, that squadron had deliberately been sent into N Vietnamese terratorial waters with the intent to provoke an "incident".

    That war -- like this one -- was fought at unfathomable expense -- without paying for it with taxes, since both administrations did not want to add to the unpopularity of their policies by forcing the country to face the immediate cost of them.

    That war -- like this one -- had horrific effects on the american economy and on america's trust in its government and leaders.

    Daniel Ellsberg, amongst many others -- tried heroically to warn this country not to invade Iraq, to not trust this administration's "facts" -- to learn from that Gulf of Tonkin history.

    The distinction between Iraq and Vietnam to me is that LBJ was the product of a deeply ingrained national Cold War consensus of his generation. One that saw all foreign events as being a part of the great long war of containment and confrontaion with the USSR. Berlin, Greece, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam were all links in the chain of this war. (For all the evil both were responible for, Nixon and Kissinger at least turned away from seeing everything through that monochromatic lens).

    Iraq was not the product of a national consensus of the "establishment". junior's plan to invade Iraq was actively opposed even by leading members of his daddy's administration.

    Iraq was the product of a very narrow, ideologically extreme group -- a group who came into power with the intent to overthrow Sadamm -- an intent they had long before 9/11.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/23/2008 at 09:26 AM.
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  14. #974  
    Quote Originally Posted by phrogpilot73 View Post
    Hmm...

    Vietnam: 9 years, over 58,000 KIA. Estimated between 500,000 and 2 million Vietnamese casualties. Started by a Democrat, acting on faulty intelligence of the Gulf of Tonkin incident (Source: Declassified NSA document).

    Iraq: 5 years, over 4,000 KIA. Estimates are widely varied, and highly disputed - but somewhere between 150,000-1.2 million Iraqi casualties. Started by a Republican, acting on faulty intelligence.

    I don't know that I'd call Iraq the biggest debacle in US History, although it is certainly up there.
    One of the reasons I was a Republican back then. That said, why do you insist on purporting that Dems and Repub parties were the same back then?

    As to the casualties in one way vs. the other - field medicine has improved DRAMATICALLY since Vietnam. You cannot compare the KIA rates of these two conflicts the way you just did as it is meaningless. Why don't you compare Iraq to the Civil War while you're at it?

    Both wars were misguided and cost our nation dearly. But I think one war did more damage to us at home, and the other war did much more damage to us abroad in terms of global respect of the US. But that distinction seems to be lost on you based on your cavalier use of KIA stats.
  15. #975  
    Quote Originally Posted by phrogpilot73 View Post
    Hmm...

    Vietnam: 9 years, over 58,000 KIA. Estimated between 500,000 and 2 million Vietnamese casualties. Started by a Democrat, acting on faulty intelligence of the Gulf of Tonkin incident (Source: Declassified NSA document).

    Iraq: 5 years, over 4,000 KIA. Estimates are widely varied, and highly disputed - but somewhere between 150,000-1.2 million Iraqi casualties. Started by a Republican, acting on faulty intelligence.

    I don't know that I'd call Iraq the biggest debacle in US History, although it is certainly up there.
    The civilian deaths and combat casualties are important, but war are not fought over such things, they are fought over resutls. The negative result of Vietnam was the unification of a state under communists and considering how that rapidly dissociated themselves with, in fact became a thorn in the side of China and immediate preferred us to the Russians si of some note. The primary result of the war in Iraq is the US assistance in establishing hegemonic strength of Iran in the region. George Bush is the best thing that ever happened to the extremists in Iran.

    Also, there are several key differences.

    First being that there was a full bipartisan decades long consensus on the core US strategy -- containment.

    There was full support and frankly outright pressure by the Repuvlican congressional leadership on both JFK to itervene and LBJ to widen the war. In fact when it is when a Republican came in that the illegal a widening of the war to Laos and Cambodia, and the carpet bombing ramped to huge levels..

    Second, wE we had statutory Senate approved treaty obligation to South Vietnam. This included commitment to US armed intervention. Not Iraq.

    Third aggregate number comparisons are a problem. Combat deaths for example have always fallen. Technology is different, even battlefield medicine is different. On civilians killed, killing a million Iraqis in the 2000 era is arguable more severe than killing 2 million Vietnamese civilians given that we are int he age of precision munitions, mode modern medicine, and in fact cultrual attitudes towards collateral killing, etc.

    We also might want to consider Korea whcih was a royal cack up on a pretty big level as well. The history of the US is not infinite. We became a huge world military power in the 1940s. Screw ups, mistakes or simple overreaching of military power in 1950 or 1960, with ten or twenty years of experience is not the same as after 50 years of experience.

    Lastly the problem in Vietnam had a lot to do with things that were opaque at the time. My dad was a high level US advisor during the US involvement in the Greek civil war. He had always said we won (the west) there by accident and later revelations from Soviet, Bulgarian and Yugoslav communist archives proved him right. But during Vietnam the principle example of "successful" counter insurgency strategy and tactics was the Greek civil war. It was the example to be emulated taught at the Army War College and used by the Vietnam planners. It was based on totally mistaken premises of why that war turned out the way it did. Area denial, free fire zones, hearts and minds, supply route bombing in fact had little to no effect against the Greek communists, they were betrayed and cut of (and in some cases their leadership killed) by the Soviets, then the Bularians and finally by Tito. Yet we thought our actions had done it and based our core CI doctrine on afalse premise.

    The point being we know so much more now and it was idiotic to overreach now. The analogy is that mistakes you or I might have made when were were in our teens or twenties are no where near as bad as making the same mistake later inlife.
  16. #976  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The civilian deaths and combat casualties are important, but war are not fought over such things, they are fought over resutls. The negative result of Vietnam was the unification of a state under communists and considering how that rapidly dissociated themselves with, in fact became a thorn in the side of China and immediate preferred us to the Russians si of some note. The primary result of the war in Iraq is the US assistance in establishing hegemonic strength of Iran in the region. George Bush is the best thing that ever happened to the extremists in Iran.

    Also, there are several key differences.

    First being that there was a full bipartisan decades long consensus on the core US strategy -- containment.

    There was full support and frankly outright pressure by the Repuvlican congressional leadership on both JFK to itervene and LBJ to widen the war. In fact when it is when a Republican came in that the illegal a widening of the war to Laos and Cambodia, and the carpet bombing ramped to huge levels...
    all true


    Lastly the problem in Vietnam had a lot to do with things that were opaque at the time. My dad was a high level US advisor during the US involvement in the Greek civil war. He had always said we won (the west) there by accident and later revelations from Soviet, Bulgarian and Yugoslav communist archives proved him right. But during Vietnam the principle example of "successful" counter insurgency strategy and tactics was the Greek civil war. It was the example to be emulated taught at the Army War College and used by the Vietnam planners. It was based on totally mistaken premises of why that war turned out the way it did. Area denial, free fire zones, hearts and minds, supply route bombing in fact had little to no effect against the Greek communists, they were betrayed and cut of (and in some cases their leadership killed) by the Soviets, then the Bularians and finally by Tito. Yet we thought our actions had done it and based our core CI doctrine on afalse premise.

    The point being we know so much more now and it was idiotic to overreach now. The analogy is that mistakes you or I might have made when were were in our teens or twenties are no where near as bad as making the same mistake later inlife.
    interesting stuff -- had not heard of most of that...
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  17. #977  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    One of the reasons I was a Republican back then. That said, why do you insist on purporting that Dems and Repub parties were the same back then?
    I'm not. It is my firm belief that the majority of this country is slightly to the left, slightly to the right, or firmly in the center. I don't think either party truly represents the majority of America now. The Republican party has moved far right, the Democrats far left.

    What I think is funny is that whoever's in power, their party gets blamed. Congress has an abysmal approval rating. Yet I heard on the news today that Democrats (who already control both houses) are probably going to pick up a couple more seats. How much logic does that make? None to me - it just proves that everyone is so seething angry with President Bush that clearly, his party is to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    As to the casualties in one way vs. the other - field medicine has improved DRAMATICALLY since Vietnam. You cannot compare the KIA rates of these two conflicts the way you just did as it is meaningless. Why don't you compare Iraq to the Civil War while you're at it?
    I'm aware as to how well field medicine has improved. I'm also aware that there's a ton of other reasons why the casualty numbers are so different (more use of precision guided munitions, number of forces in theatre, etc...) I wasn't necessarily using it as a comparison in body counts. I was using it to debunk the idea that Iraq is the worst debacle in history. The casulaty numbers were used more to illustrate scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Both wars were misguided and cost our nation dearly. But I think one war did more damage to us at home, and the other war did much more damage to us abroad in terms of global respect of the US. But that distinction seems to be lost on you based on your cavalier use of KIA stats.
    Nope. That distinction was not lost on me. I'm glad you think that I had a "cavalier use of KIA stats." Trust me, it was not cavalier in any sense of the word. Getting your aircraft airborne in only 6 minutes, then being told to turn around because the patient expired tends to stay with you for quite some time.
    "Whenever I feel like exercise I lie down until the feeling passes."
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins


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  18. #978  
    Quote Originally Posted by phrogpilot73 View Post
    ... it just proves that everyone is so seething angry with President Bush that clearly, his party is to blame...

    ...I was using it to debunk the idea that Iraq is the worst debacle in history...
    do I interpret what you write as saying that you believe Iraq is among the greatest debacles in american history ??
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  19. #979  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The primary result of the war in Iraq is the US assistance in establishing hegemonic strength of Iran in the region. George Bush is the best thing that ever happened to the extremists in Iran.
    I agree, and one of the things that everyone in general doesn't understand is that we're still cleaning up Britain's mess. Iraq is comprised of Sunnis, Shias, Christians, and Kurds. They all hate each other. The ONLY reason they were able to stay a solvent nation state is because Saddam ruled with an iron fist, and they feared and hated him - more than they feared and hated each other. Now we're trying to make democracy fit for them, and their neighboring country thinks that we're trying to move them away from Sharia Law. I never said Iraq was sunshine and puppies, I'm just arguing that it's not the only debacle, nor the largest.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Second, wE we had statutory Senate approved treaty obligation to South Vietnam. This included commitment to US armed intervention. Not Iraq.
    I'll agree we didn't have a treaty with Iraq. However are you saying that use of force wasn't authorized by the Congress? If so, you're wrong. Public law 107-243 was signed October 16, 2002 authorizing the use of force in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Third aggregate number comparisons are a problem. Combat deaths for example have always fallen. Technology is different, even battlefield medicine is different.
    Agreed, and as I stated - I was using it to illustrate scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    On civilians killed, killing a million Iraqis in the 2000 era is arguable more severe than killing 2 million Vietnamese civilians given that we are int he age of precision munitions, mode modern medicine, and in fact cultrual attitudes towards collateral killing, etc.
    I would agree IF people could agree on a number. The difference between Vietnam civilian deaths and Iraq civilian deaths is the sheer number in Iraq that came about due to the ethnic cleansing that occurred. My biggest problem with Iraq is the complete lack of understanding of the cultural and religious influences in the region while decisions post-invasion were being made.

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    The point being we know so much more now and it was idiotic to overreach now. The analogy is that mistakes you or I might have made when were were in our teens or twenties are no where near as bad as making the same mistake later inlife.
    I agree, however the big difference is that I (one individual) is learning from the mistakes I (one individual) made. Now you start throwing in all the polticial stuff, and you can see how one party thinks they have the solution and they clearly can't make the same mistake because they aren't from party X.
    "Whenever I feel like exercise I lie down until the feeling passes."
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins


    Palm Pilot 1000 -> Philips Nino -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Alltel Kyocera 7135 -> Cingular Treo 650 -> AT&T Blackjack II -> AT&T Treo 750 & Epix
  20. #980  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    do I interpret what you write as saying that you believe Iraq is among the greatest debacles in american history ??
    I would agree with that statement, and if I wasn't wording myself well - I'm going to blame it on being a software engineer.
    "Whenever I feel like exercise I lie down until the feeling passes."
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins


    Palm Pilot 1000 -> Philips Nino -> Handspring Visor Deluxe -> Alltel Kyocera 7135 -> Cingular Treo 650 -> AT&T Blackjack II -> AT&T Treo 750 & Epix

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