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  1. #881  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    They are and have been mentioned; however, in the case with McCain, these associations were discussed by McCain and then discontinued. As for Palin, you ought to be here in Hawaii - the separatist movement puts Alaska to shame and the movement is supported by Hawaii's senators. Politics.
    Shhhh....be very quiet...

    ...I hear the dying gasp of a hypocrite in his final days spinning like it might save his pathetic, lying, directionless campaign.

    Oh wait, never mind...that's just Ben. Tell me Ben, do you receive a paycheck from McShame to be his shill?
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/13/2008 at 10:15 AM.
  2. #882  
    Not at all. And Mod, as others call you, I have no agenda other than the man's politics. I often wonder what yours is - the name calling, the emotional triads, the heckling. The stupid comments like the above - what do you hope to achieve by showing your immaturity?
  3. #883  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Not at all. And Mod, as others call you, I have no agenda other than the man's politics. I often wonder what yours is - the name calling, the emotional triads, the heckling. The stupid comments like the above - what do you hope to achieve by showing your immaturity?
    Perhaps if you had the maturity to treat us like adults we'd treat you like one Ben. But your childish rhetorical attacks are often insensitive, irrational, unsubstantiated, and frankly insult otherwise perfectly normal and well adjusted adults to act out with maddening frustration. On most forums such individuals are known as "trolls" and I admit I should know better than to feed a troll.

    So I'll take "personal responsibility" where I know you won't (because you never do) and owe up to posting my maddening frustrations with you.
  4. #884  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    This endorsement for Obama from Christopher Buckley sums it up pretty well from my vantage point. He is pulling the lever for a Dem for the first time in his life - and his reasons cannot have been better said.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...e-for-obama/p/
    After Christopher Buckley announced his intention to vote for Obama, the right wing has been on a hate filled Jihad against him.

    The son of the legendary William F. Buckley, the founder of the influential Nation Review -- has been a long time writer himself for that publication.

    But because of the depth of anger and poison provoked by Buckley's confession, he has been forced to resign from his position as a writer for The National Review.



    October 14, 2008,
    Buckley’s Son Leaves National Review
    By Patricia Cohen NY Times

    Christopher Buckley, the author and son of the late conservative mainstay William F. Buckley, said in a telephone interview that he has resigned from the National Review, the political journal his father founded in 1955.

    Mr. Buckley said he had “been effectively fatwahed by the conservative movement” after endorsing Barack Obama in a blog posting on TheDailyBeast.com; since then, he said he has been blanketed with hate mail at the blog and at the National Review, where he has written a column.

    As a result, he wrote to Richard Lowry, the editor of the National Review, and its publisher, Jack Fowler, offering to resign, and “this offer was rather briskly accepted,” Mr. Buckley said.

    Mr. Buckley said he did not understand the sense of betrayal that some of his conservative colleagues felt, but said that the fury and ugly comments his endorsement generated is “part of the calcification of modern discourse. It’s so angry.” Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan’s quote about the Democrats, Mr. Buckley added, “I haven’t left the Republican Party. It left me.”
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/15/2008 at 01:52 PM.
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  5. #885  
    Mr. Buckley said he had “been effectively fatwahed by the conservative movement”
    Stunning really. Clearly, given his National Review lineage, it was an embarrassing blow to McShame.

    But Buckley called it exactly what it is - a fatwah. The right-wing are every bit as bad as the Taliban IMO. They've become hate mongering religious extremist that don't resemble anything "conservative" at all.
  6. #886  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Stunning really. Clearly, given his National Review lineage, it was an embarrassing blow to McShame.
    That is one way to look at it...

    Another way is that stuff like this will awaken republicans and cause them to storm the polls next month.

    Bottom line is no matter what these "polls" say, McCain could still very well win this thing. As strange as that may be... and disastrous.
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  7. #887  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Bottom line is no matter what these "polls" say, McCain could still very well win this thing. As strange as that may be... and disastrous.
    I agree. A lot could go wrong in the final days. And as much as I don't want to believe the Bradley effect may come into play - it still might.
  8. #888  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I agree. A lot could go wrong in the final days. And as much as I don't want to believe the Bradley effect may come into play - it still might.
    You have to admit though, obama is putting up one heck of a fight... I think his entire campaingn from start to finish will be analyzed in the coming years.

    Just like I said months ago, obama needed to make a play for a couple of places in the south and attack other gop places where independents normally go gop. He is doing that and making mccain spend $$$ in parts of the south... money mccain is not putting into other places.

    This election is going to be interesting...

    I'm thinking that obama needs to blow mccain out... if it is close, I'm not sure if obama won't look like kerry and gore...
    Last edited by theog; 10/15/2008 at 01:09 PM.
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  9. #889  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    You have to admit though, obama is putting up one heck of a fight... I think his entire campaingn from start to finish will be analyzed in the coming years.

    Just like I said months ago, obama needed to make a play for a couple of places in the south and attack other gop places where independents normally go gop. He is doing that and making mccain spend $$$ in parts of the south... money mccain is not putting into other places.

    This election is going to be interesting...

    I'm thinking that obama needs to blow mccain out... if it is close, I'm not sure if obama won't look like kerry and gore...
    Agreed - he has run the best campaign this election cycle. Lest we forget...McShame ran his campaign into the ground financially in the primaries and had to use his wife's money to bail him out. HRC also squandered her treasure. If he wins, his campaign will go down as one of the best run campaigns in decades.
  10. #890  
    And don't forget that McCain said he would accept public funding, which limits what he can spend. Obama said the same thing and then changed his mind. Least we forget.
  11. #891  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    After Christopher Buckley announced his intention to vote for Obama, the right wing has been on a hate filled Jihad against him.

    The son of the legendary William F. Buckley, the founder of the influential Nation Review -- has been a long time writer himself for that publication.

    But because of the depth of anger and poison provoked by Buckley's confession, he has been forced to resign from his position as a for The National Review.



    October 14, 2008,
    Buckley’s Son Leaves National Review
    By Patricia Cohen NY Times

    Christopher Buckley, the author and son of the late conservative mainstay William F. Buckley, said in a telephone interview that he has resigned from the National Review, the political journal his father founded in 1955.

    Mr. Buckley said he had “been effectively fatwahed by the conservative movement” after endorsing Barack Obama in a blog posting on TheDailyBeast.com; since then, he said he has been blanketed with hate mail at the blog and at the National Review, where he has written a column.

    As a result, he wrote to Richard Lowry, the editor of the National Review, and its publisher, Jack Fowler, offering to resign, and “this offer was rather briskly accepted,” Mr. Buckley said.

    Mr. Buckley said he did not understand the sense of betrayal that some of his conservative colleagues felt, but said that the fury and ugly comments his endorsement generated is “part of the calcification of modern discourse. It’s so angry.” Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan’s quote about the Democrats, Mr. Buckley added, “I haven’t left the Republican Party. It left me.”
    I just got a few moments to read his latest blog about his "resignation" from the NR and have to say, it was very well said - again. Aside from the Obama endorsement, there should be no surprise that my favorite section of the blog said:

    While I regret this development, I am not in mourning, for I no longer have any clear idea what, exactly, the modern conservative movement stands for. Eight years of “conservative” government has brought us a doubled national debt, ruinous expansion of entitlement programs, bridges to nowhere, poster boy Jack Abramoff and an ill-premised, ill-waged war conducted by politicians of breathtaking arrogance. As a sideshow, it brought us a truly obscene attempt at federal intervention in the Terry Schiavo case.



    So, to paraphrase a real conservative, Ronald Reagan: I haven’t left the Republican Party. It left me.
    A worthwhile read if you have the time http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...d-i-was-fired/
  12. #892  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I'm think McShame has had a much better night than the first debate --

    He more directly answered the questions asked with specificity, his attacks were more organic to his answers.

    Obama was ok -- but he was too much spouting generalities and platitudes, not sufficiently giving a sense of having a prepared plan ready to solve problems.

    Obama ironically became better as they moved onto foreign policy.

    Overall I'll give McShame a: B, and Obama a: C+ B-.

    The polls will tighten some -- though the economic fear will lessen the advantage McShame would have gained from tonight otherwise
    The fat lady almost certainly sang for McShame tonight.

    I heard most of tonight's debate from the radio -- and just now saw the opening 30 minutes via my DVR.

    McShame was utterly outclassed -- he was anxious, uncomfortable -- forcing discussion inorganically in erratic directions. Even the way he himself raised the topic of Ayers was painful to watch.

    Obama was relaxed, competent, knowledgeable, articulate, civil. Admittedly its always easier for the class hero to be generous and patient with his adversary. McShame is in that awful position of being the homely antagonist competing against the handsome, well spoken, intelligent guy that everyone likes. (No matter if Richard the III was right or not -- his physical ugliness limited the receptability of his arguments.)

    I'd give Obama a B+ A- tonight -- and out of generously McShame is given a C, D-.
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  13. #893  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The fat lady almost certainly sang for McShame tonight.

    I heard most of tonight's debate from the radio -- and just now saw the opening 30 minutes via my DVR.

    McShame was utterly outclassed -- he was anxious, uncomfortable -- forcing discussion inorganically in erratic directions. Even the way he himself raised the topic of Ayers was painful to watch.

    Obama was relaxed, competent, knowledgeable, articulate, civil. Admittedly its always easier for the class hero to be generous and patient with his adversary. McShame is in that awful position of being the homely antagonist competing against the handsome, well spoken, intelligent guy that everyone likes. (No matter if Richard the III was right or not -- his physical ugliness limited the receptability of his arguments.)

    I'd give Obama a B+ A- tonight -- and out of generously McShame is given a C, D-.
    I actually thought Obama was playing a bit too much prevent defense in the first 30 minutes - or as though he knew he could just "phone it in" this last debate. But then McAngry old man showed up and I think Obama just looked far controlled, articulate, and much more Presidential.

    But it was McAngry's best debate performance. Franlky, I think this was his best format - not the town hall. Overall, Obama will go down as the winner - and the polls already seem to support that notion.
  14. #894  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I actually thought Obama was playing a bit too much prevent defense in the first 30 minutes - or as though he knew he could just "phone it in" this last debate. But then McAngry old man showed up and I think Obama just looked far controlled, articulate, and much more Presidential.

    But it was McAngry's best debate performance. Franlky, I think this was his best format - not the town hall. Overall, Obama will go down as the winner - and the polls already seem to support that notion.
    I just listened to the DVR of ABC's post debate analysis and I think they mostly agreed with you.

    Almost nobody ever shares BARYE's opinions...
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  15. #895  
    McCain definitely did better in this one than he had done in the past two. I don't know if it was good enough to win, though. He started out really strong, but he didn't finish off as strong, so I can't really decide.
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  16. #896  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    McCain definitely did better in this one than he had done in the past two. I don't know if it was good enough to win, though. He started out really strong, but he didn't finish off as strong, so I can't really decide.
    Yea...I was just watching it again (skimming through really) and I think my assessment of McCain's second half performance is worse than I originally thought. He really imploded IMO. Obama was definitely playing prevent defense, but he sensed the moment when McCain's wheels starting coming off and he made sure McCain drove his straight talk express right off a cliff.

    So Barye...I'm actually closer to your opinion now having had another look at this thing.
  17. #897  
    further comment is almost unnecessary ...

    'Joe the Plumber' becomes center of debate
    By Peter Eisler, USA TODAY

    TOLEDO, Ohio — "Joe the Plumber," who became an instant political celebrity after John McCain cited him Wednesday night as a potential victim of Barack Obama's tax plans, has a lien on his home for failing to pay state income taxes.

    He also isn't a licensed plumber, Ohio records show...

    Wurzelbacher told Obama that he hoped to buy the plumbing business where he's employed and noted that the business makes slightly more than $250,000 a year. "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" Wurzelbacher asked.

    In Wednesday's debate, McCain, Obama's Republican opponent, invoked Wurzelbacher as "Joe the Plumber" and used his story as an example in arguing that Obama's tax plan would penalize small business owners. Turns out, Wurzelbacher may not have been the best case study.

    Wurzelbacher acknowledged in an interview with the Associated Press that he does not make more than $250,000 a year — the threshold for getting a tax increase under Obama's plan. He also acknowledged that he has no specific plan to buy the plumbing business where he works — a two-man firm that consists of Wurzelbacher and the owner ...

    "It is utterly bizarre that McCain chose this guy as the poster child, because this guy would get a tax cut under Obama, and wouldn't under McCain," says William Gale, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, which has analyzed both Obama's and McCain's tax plans. The center is run jointly by the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institute, two Washington think tanks...

    ...He has been registered to vote in Ohio since 1992, registration records show, but he never aligned with a particular party until this spring, when he opted to vote in the Republican primary.

    County court records show that two liens have been placed against Wurzelbacher's home. ... The second, for $1,182.98, was placed by the state of Ohio in January 2007 for unpaid personal income taxes, and that lien remains in effect.

    Wurzelbacher told the AP that he works for Newell Plumbing and Heating in Toledo and said he does not have a plumber's license. ...

    ...the tax analyst, said commercial business databases suggest that Newell's business apparently has annual sales of about $100,000. As such, Obama's tax plan would not raise taxes on the business. Under the plan, only businesses with adjusted gross incomes over $250,000 a year would see tax increases, and the increase would be only on that portion of their income that exceeds $250,000...
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  18. #898  
    how our tale began ...


    ...County Republican Chairman John Stainbrook said the plumber's rise to fame began when Fox News saw him quoted in the Toledo Blade from an exchange he had Sunday with Democrat Barack Obama. Obama had knocked on doors while campaigning in the neighborhood.

    Fox News asked the state Republican Party to find Wurzelbacher, Stainbrook said. Stainbrook located the plumber's brother, who gave him Wurzelbacher's phone number and asked for McCain yard signs and bumper stickers.

    The Republican Party gave Wurzelbacher's phone number to Fox News, which interviewed him Tuesday. "Fox broke the story, and McCain picked it up," Stainbrook said.

    The Republican Party is trying to get Joe to appear onstage with McCain on Sunday at a Toledo rally, but the plumber may not be available because he's flying to New York to appear on Mike Huckabee's show Saturday night on Fox News,

    The McCain campaign has made a . It shows Joe's exchange with Obama and quotes "leading papers" (the conservative New York Post and Pittsburgh Tribune Review) as calling Obama's tax cuts "welfare" and "government handouts."
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  19. #899  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    further comment is almost unnecessary ...

    'Joe the Plumber' becomes center of debate
    By Peter Eisler, USA TODAY

    TOLEDO, Ohio — "Joe the Plumber," who became an instant political celebrity after John McCain cited him Wednesday night as a potential victim of Barack Obama's tax plans, has a lien on his home for failing to pay state income taxes.

    He also isn't a licensed plumber, Ohio records show...

    Wurzelbacher told Obama that he hoped to buy the plumbing business where he's employed and noted that the business makes slightly more than $250,000 a year. "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" Wurzelbacher asked.

    In Wednesday's debate, McCain, Obama's Republican opponent, invoked Wurzelbacher as "Joe the Plumber" and used his story as an example in arguing that Obama's tax plan would penalize small business owners. Turns out, Wurzelbacher may not have been the best case study.

    Wurzelbacher acknowledged in an interview with the Associated Press that he does not make more than $250,000 a year — the threshold for getting a tax increase under Obama's plan. He also acknowledged that he has no specific plan to buy the plumbing business where he works — a two-man firm that consists of Wurzelbacher and the owner ...

    "It is utterly bizarre that McCain chose this guy as the poster child, because this guy would get a tax cut under Obama, and wouldn't under McCain," says William Gale, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, which has analyzed both Obama's and McCain's tax plans. The center is run jointly by the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institute, two Washington think tanks...

    ...He has been registered to vote in Ohio since 1992, registration records show, but he never aligned with a particular party until this spring, when he opted to vote in the Republican primary.

    County court records show that two liens have been placed against Wurzelbacher's home. ... The second, for $1,182.98, was placed by the state of Ohio in January 2007 for unpaid personal income taxes, and that lien remains in effect.

    Wurzelbacher told the AP that he works for Newell Plumbing and Heating in Toledo and said he does not have a plumber's license. ...

    ...the tax analyst, said commercial business databases suggest that Newell's business apparently has annual sales of about $100,000. As such, Obama's tax plan would not raise taxes on the business. Under the plan, only businesses with adjusted gross incomes over $250,000 a year would see tax increases, and the increase would be only on that portion of their income that exceeds $250,000...
    Actually further comment is necessary. The article is pretty pointless.

    1. Joe is a plumber. If there's any relevance to his not being licensed, the "journalist" doesn't explain it.

    2. Joe has said that he's "looking to buy" the business. He didn't claim that there was any specific deal in place.

    3. Commercial databases are extremely inaccurate when it comes to small businesses because they don't have access to real information, such as tax returns or financial statements. They actually make up sales figures using formulas based on industry, employee count, geographic location, and yellow page advertising. Sometimes, they even just call up the office and ask them their sales. Drawing conclusions about a specific business's tax burden based on such data is stupid.

    4. The only real info we have on the income of Joe's employer is what he said to Obama - that it makes $270K to $280K per year. If he was lying, a commercial database is not evidence of it.

    5. Joe's current personal income is also not the issue. He had asked Obama about the impact on the business taxes.

    6. The relevant issue is what impact the different tax plans will have on Joe's employer. The tax expert consulted by USA Today drew a conclusion based on the belief that the business makes $100K. That belief was contradicted by Joe himself.

    7. Oh, and one more thing. Joe is a plumber. So far, I've found no evidence that Peter Eisler is licensed as a journalist in Ohio or elsewhere.
  20. #900  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I watched a few talking head post debate analysis shows late last night after the debate (ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNN) and almost all of them gave the night to McShame. They were almost unified in saying that it was his "best" debate performance of the series.

    But like you've said -- ordinary people thought Obama had done far better.

    Talking heads just don't perceive the world the way ordinary folks do -- the way BARYE does ...
    The key is the independents - who overwhelmingly thought Obama won. The Dems and Repubs break for their candidates pretty evenly. I think 16% of Repubs gave Obama the nod, while only 5% of Dems thought McCain won. So again, each party supporters will usually vote for their guy, even if he lost. So I rely on the independents - and the focus groups are somewhat interesting. I turn to Fox to see their focus group - and because I've enjoyed watching Frank Luntz try to spin when their focus group picks Obama as the winner. Last night he admitted that Obama won according to their focus group.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/16/2008 at 06:48 PM.

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