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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Human life begins at conception. It's basic biology. That being said, do 1 year olds have the same rights as 16 year olds, 18 year olds, 21 year olds, etc.? Humans do not have the same rights at all their developmental stages. What do you think the penalty should be for a zygote not embedding into the uterine wall?
    Any living human being has the same right to life as any other living human being. Once life begins for a human being, they are a living human being. As for the zygote not embedding, the penalty is the same as it is for people who die of natural causes...none. If the zygote doesn't embed into the uterine wall, that's a natural occurance. Abortion is an man-made cause of death...completely different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Considering the context of the question, it was pretty clear that he was talking about unborn 'babies'.
    And considering the context of the question, it was pretty clear he was asking when life began.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would you need to understand a question to give the correct 'right answer'?
    You do need to understand a question. I never said you didn't. However, for most brains, it doesn't take that long, especially when you've heard the question over and over. By that time, if you give a fast response, it's not because you didn't understand the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Depending on the context, yes. Do you play poker?
    I do play poker a little, but 2+2 is 4...always. There might be some poker terms where it's different (I guess I'm not that big of a poker player, since I have no idea why you jumped to poker), but the basic math question is always the same.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    I bet you those Russians would listen a hell of a lot faster to that than "Russia...it's time for a change. Yes, you can."
    With that kind of thinking we will be in another war if mccain is elected.

    But you seem to be ALL FOR another war.

    With your thinking, we don't want abortions since we will start killing all our children at 18 anyway when we send them off for war in the next four years.

    Yes, your points make sense now.
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    Any living human being has the same right to life as any other living human being.
    Now we're going to get messy. Let's say I begin building a car. If I've just got the rolling chassis complete, is it a car yet?
    Once life begins for a human being, they are a living human being.
    No, they are a zygote, then an embryo, then a fetus, then a baby, etc. etc. etc.
    As for the zygote not embedding, the penalty is the same as it is for people who die of natural causes...none.
    We're not talking about old age here. What about a person who died because they were denied medical care? If it's a human being, and we should be able to save it, isn't there the obligation to try?
    If the zygote doesn't embed into the uterine wall, that's a natural occurance.
    Is it? If it's a human being at conception, aren't we supposed to intervene medically?
    Abortion is an man-made cause of death...completely different things.
    War is a man-made cause of death as well. So is capital punishment. I assume your position on those is not congruent?
    And considering the context of the question, it was pretty clear he was asking when life began.
    No. Ultimately, he was asking when the state should intervene in the protection of the unborn. If human rights kick in at conception, it is the obligation of the state to protect that human life just like any other from the point of conception.
    You do need to understand a question. I never said you didn't.
    You certainly implied that it was OK for him to answer a different question.
    However, for most brains, it doesn't take that long, especially when you've heard the question over and over. By that time, if you give a fast response, it's not because you didn't understand the question.
    Almost like a reflex, eh?
    I do play poker a little, but 2+2 is 4...always.
    Not for very large values of 2, though. Or when the masses have decided it's 5. Or Big Brother (or Father) tells them it's 5.
    There might be some poker terms where it's different (I guess I'm not that big of a poker player, since I have no idea why you jumped to poker), but the basic math question is always the same.
    Because there are both a publishing company and poker forum named 2+2.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Now we're going to get messy. Let's say I begin building a car. If I've just got the rolling chassis complete, is it a car yet?
    With companies like Scion putting what's basically a refrigerator box on wheels on the roads these days, then yeah, it would probably be considered a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No, they are a zygote, then an embryo, then a fetus, then a baby, etc. etc. etc.
    Oh, I get it...babies are not humans. So what age do I have to be before I am a human? There are different names for the different stages of life, but once life begins, you are one of whatever species your parents were. In this case...you're a human. If life begins at conception, then from conception on, you are a human. If life begins at birth, then from birth on, you are a human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    We're not talking about old age here. What about a person who died because they were denied medical care? If it's a human being, and we should be able to save it, isn't there the obligation to try?
    That's why we have county hospitals that are legally required to provide care to anyone, regardless of what obstacles may be present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Is it? If it's a human being at conception, aren't we supposed to intervene medically?
    If we catch it early enough to successfully intervene, then yes, we should intervene. I believe, usually, that particular event is hard to detect, so there's nothing we can do. Of course, I'm not a doctor, so I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    War is a man-made cause of death as well. So is capital punishment. I assume your position on those is not congruent?
    War is necessary at times to protect the majority of society. If an abortion saves the life of the mother, then you could start considering it. I'm just not for abortion that's just because she doesn't want the baby (rape is the only gray area there). That is not even something that should be considered.

    Capitol punishment is something I lean both ways on. On one hand, it's reserved for those who murdered others, and could be argued that they deserve it, but on the other hand, it's still murder...even if it is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No. Ultimately, he was asking when the state should intervene in the protection of the unborn. If human rights kick in at conception, it is the obligation of the state to protect that human life just like any other from the point of conception.
    Exactly. Human rights begin when life begins, so whatever can be done to preserve those human rights should be done.
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    With that kind of thinking we will be in another war if mccain is elected.

    But you seem to be ALL FOR another war.

    With your thinking, we don't want abortions since we will start killing all our children at 18 anyway when we send them off for war in the next four years.

    Yes, your points make sense now.
    If a war is necessary, then yes, I'm for it. If there's a way to avoid it, then that's the best option.

    It's not like McCain is going to be sworn in, and then 5 seconds later, he's going to be launching nukes at somebody. If the need arises, he'll consult with Congress and ask their permission to proceed.
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    With companies like Scion putting what's basically a refrigerator box on wheels on the roads these days, then yeah, it would probably be considered a car.
    I take it you aren't familiar with the term 'rolling chassis', then.
    Oh, I get it...babies are not humans.
    No, you apparently don't get it.
    So what age do I have to be before I am a human?
    With some of our species, it may never happen.
    There are different names for the different stages of life, but once life begins, you are one of whatever species your parents were. In this case...you're a human. If life begins at conception, then from conception on, you are a human. If life begins at birth, then from birth on, you are a human.
    Human isn't a species, FWIW.
    That's why we have county hospitals that are legally required to provide care to anyone, regardless of what obstacles may be present.
    Then why aren't they forcefully embedding those zygotes?
    If we catch it early enough to successfully intervene, then yes, we should intervene. I believe, usually, that particular event is hard to detect, so there's nothing we can do.
    Weak excuses. If it has the same human rights, we must find a way.
    Of course, I'm not a doctor, so I don't know.
    So, you're trying the "it's above my pay grade" excuse? Et tu Brute?
    War is necessary at times to protect the majority of society.
    But what about their right to life?
    If an abortion saves the life of the mother, then you could start considering it. I'm just not for abortion that's just because she doesn't want the baby (rape is the only gray area there). That is not even something that should be considered.
    While I can empathize with the sentiment, I'm just as reluctant for the state to get involved as in most facets of my life.
    Capitol punishment is something I lean both ways on.
    Well, it was a greatest hits type album, so I guess it's not necessarily going to please both the fans of the early years and the later stuff.
    On one hand, it's reserved for those who murdered others, and could be argued that they deserve it, but on the other hand, it's still murder...even if it is justified.
    You really do have a weird connotation of the word murder.
    Exactly. Human rights begin when life begins, so whatever can be done to preserve those human rights should be done.
    Egad. Sounds like a huge government program waiting to happen.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #67  
    Right. It took bush all of three years to invade iraq. McSame might be able to improve on that achievement.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Right. It took bush all of three years to invade iraq. McSame might be able to improve on that achievement.


    Don't forget Afghanistan. We are in two wars...
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Human isn't a species, FWIW.
    Whoever made this article seems to think so. I don't know why I posted that, since I know your answer will be that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but whatever.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Then why aren't they forcefully embedding those zygotes?
    Maybe there's not a way yet.. I honestly don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Weak excuses. If it has the same human rights, we must find a way.
    Yes, lets. We can't be that far away...after all, we are able to artificially inseminate women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, you're trying the "it's above my pay grade" excuse? Et tu Brute?
    No...I'm saying that my answer may be wrong because I'm not an expert on the subject. I didn't dodge the question by using the pay grade excuse. I answered the question to the best of my ability, but added a clause that made it clear that my answer could be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    But what about their right to life?
    Soldiers (in America, anyway) volunteer to be soldiers. They know they are possibly sacrificing their lives. They have a right to life, but they knowingly sacrifice that right for the sake of the country. Of course, if a draft were to happen, then that logic wouldn't hold true, but for the most part, it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    You really do have a weird connotation of the word murder.
    Okay, you're right. Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of one human by another. Capitol punishment isn't murder, as it is lawful. Personally, I lean more to the "for it" side, because I think if you take away the rights of another, then you deserve your rights taken away. There's still a part of me that says it's wrong though, as it is killing. I also have that same partial disagreement with war, because that also involves killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Egad. Sounds like a huge government program waiting to happen.
    I'd love it to happen. I know it probably won't any time soon, but if the government could set up a program to prevent people from even considering abortion as an option, that would be great. Unfortunately, with all the debt we are in (that part, I'll admit, is mostly due to Bush and his war on Iraq), it's not something that's plausible any time in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post


    Don't forget Afghanistan. We are in two wars...
    I'm not sure if this was sarcastic or not, but do you really think we should NOT be in Afghanistan? Perhaps it's not correct to call it a war on Afghanistan, since they technically did not do anything to us (but I guess that's why we're calling it the War on Terror). However, terrorists who run a major part of their operation out of Afghanistan did attack us, so it would be ridiculous of us not to retaliate.
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    I'm not sure if this was sarcastic or not, but do you really think we should NOT be in Afghanistan?
    That is going way off topic... you need to throttle it back and get off whatever you are sipping....

    Perhaps it's not correct to call it a war on Afghanistan,
    Who said it was "a war on Afghanistan?"

    You don't have an issue with obama, you have an issue with comprehension in general.

    Ahh... that is why you like McCain's sound bits.
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  11. #71  
    Ah...calling me stupid...I was wondering when that would come.

    That my friends, ends the debate. On the kindergarten playground, whoever is the first to call somebody stupid wins.
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  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    Ah...calling me stupid...I was wondering when that would come.
    If the shoe fits....

    Attempting to "create" a debate by attempting to create a post that does not exist is very rude.. hint, hint....

    That my friends, ends the debate. On the kindergarten playground, whoever is the first to call somebody stupid wins.
    Never was a debate... just you with the lame remarks that never added up. Sorry...
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    Whoever made this article seems to think so. I don't know why I posted that, since I know your answer will be that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but whatever.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
    The species is homo sapiens (well, technically that's genus and species, but whatever).
    Maybe there's not a way yet.. I honestly don't know.
    You couldn't find anything on Wikipedia?
    Yes, lets. We can't be that far away...after all, we are able to artificially inseminate women.
    Wasn't the moral majority against that originally, too?
    No...I'm saying that my answer may be wrong because I'm not an expert on the subject.
    6 of 1, half-dozen...
    I didn't dodge the question by using the pay grade excuse.
    In a way, you did worse because you did answer the question knowing that it was above your pay grade, and then followed with the pay grade excuse.
    I answered the question to the best of my ability, but added a clause that made it clear that my answer could be wrong.
    Flip-flopper.
    Soldiers (in America, anyway) volunteer to be soldiers. They know they are possibly sacrificing their lives. They have a right to life, but they knowingly sacrifice that right for the sake of the country. Of course, if a draft were to happen, then that logic wouldn't hold true, but for the most part, it does.
    And what of the soldiers on the other side? Do they not get the right to life?
    Capitol punishment isn't murder, as it is lawful.
    Since you didn't get the subtle hint, it's capital punishment. Capitol is the name of a building or a record company (among other things).
    I'd love it to happen. I know it probably won't any time soon, but if the government could set up a program to prevent people from even considering abortion as an option, that would be great. Unfortunately, with all the debt we are in (that part, I'll admit, is mostly due to Bush and his war on Iraq), it's not something that's plausible any time in the near future.
    Wow...it's rare to get a 'conservative' to admit their goal is thought-control and bigger government in the same paragraph.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #74  
    Ok... looks like we have something to actually discuss....

    CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama has selected Delaware Sen. Joe Biden as his running mate, according to his official Web site and a text message the campaign sent to supporters on Saturday.

    Obama-Biden.....

    I would have though obama would have went for someone from a larger state, like VA. But I guess Biden had less "trash" in his background...

    Not to mention Biden is a Senator....

    I don't know much about Biden, to be honest.
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Ok... looks like we have something to actually discuss....

    CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama has selected Delaware Sen. Joe Biden as his running mate, according to his official Web site and a text message the campaign sent to supporters on Saturday.

    Obama-Biden.....

    I would have though obama would have went for someone from a larger state, like VA. But I guess Biden had less "trash" in his background...

    Not to mention Biden is a Senator....

    I don't know much about Biden, to be honest.
    I've always found Biden to be very bright, with a tendency to speak his mind (which sometimes causes a verbal gaffe or two). He's got a lot of foreign policy knowledge....he's probably a really good choice.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  16. #76  
    Mccain will win for sure now.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    Mccain will win for sure now.
    I'm fairly certain that he won't. My personal opinion is that the media is trying to make it look like a horserace by emphasizing the overall voting percentages, but if you look state by state, it doesn't appear nearly as close.
  18. #78  
    I don't think the nation will embrace biden or obama for that matter the way you think they will either. What polls say people will do and what people actually do in the voting booths are often two entirely different things. I think you're in for a surprise.
  19. #79  
    logmein, while that's true, I think it's much to early to say one of them will win for sure. There's still time...the general campaign just kicked off...there's debates and plenty more to come.
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  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    [...] But I guess Biden had less "trash" in his background...

    Not to mention Biden is a Senator....

    I don't know much about Biden, to be honest.
    Biden's biggest black marks are a couple plagiarism accusations from his 1987 nomination attempt and from his law school days. Those and his past comments about McCain (glowing praise in some cases) are undoubtedly what the McCain camp will use against him.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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