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  1. #541  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    ...
    I can understand the whole Iraq thing, but what really shocks me is that there are people out there who think that we should not have gone after the people responsible for events of September 11th, 2001 ...
    please clarify --

    you are not in any way implying that going into Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 are you ?? (I'm sure there's a misunderstanding, 'cause not even junior tells that lie anymore ...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #542  
    Yeah, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. That's why I can understand the disagreement with it.
    a740 --> a900 --> Katana --> a900 --> a900m --> M1 --> a900m --> PPC6700 --> a900m--> 8400 --> a900m --> Treo 700wx --> Treo 800w
  3. #543  
    Iraq was peripherally related to 9/11.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #544  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Iraq was peripherally related to 9/11.
    Other than cheering in the streets after the attacks (much like the Palestinians), what peripheral relation was there? Just curious.
  5. #545  
    Both the 911 Commission and the Pentagon have stated that there was no Iraq connection to 9/11.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  6. #546  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Other than cheering in the streets after the attacks (much like the Palestinians), what peripheral relation was there? Just curious.
    One of the most oft-cited reasons for 9/11 was OBL's problems with the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia. The reason for the presence was due to the first Gulf War and keeping tabs on Saddam.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #547  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    One of the most oft-cited reasons for 9/11 was OBL's problems with the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia. The reason for the presence was due to the first Gulf War and keeping tabs on Saddam.
    Even if that's true, it doesn't then follow that attacking Iraq would have any positive impact on the situation. And that wasn't, of course, the stated connection that GWB used to justify the attacks.
  8. #548  
    Quote Originally Posted by WHarropson View Post
    I read it all, I concede you have a point, I wish this had spell check, I knew I misspelled, just got lazy.

    I gotta stop taking those Government handouts... it's making me lazy,

    I don't blame any of you for taking your best shots where you can.

    Did my analogy mean anything to you beside indite me for hypocrisy?

    I admit on this regard I'm a "practical hypocrite". But don't elect me to a legislature or I'll vote against continuing giving home buyers taxpayers money to help them buy any home whether they can afford it on their own or not.

    Government is a mess, I do hope the american people will elect the administration that is most likely to do the least harm in this regard, but your complaints about this governor, though valid, doesn't put the issue to rest. Your side also stands on pretty shaky ground.

    Admit it.

    Had you been studying the writings of Chairman BARYE as thoroughly as you should have, you'd know that Google's Chrome browser spell checks as you write (these inspiring spelled checked words have come to you via Chrome).

    As to the other things you wrote about -- I personally tend to be pretty judgmental when it comes to the moral failings of others.

    Perhaps destructively so.

    I want to smash the windshields of cars that nearly run me over rushing through red lights while jabbering on their mobiles -- I want to stuff the coke can down the throats of those who cast them casually aside onto the street.

    Yet were I honest with myself I'd acknowledge my own (extraordinarily tiny) moral imperfections.

    In some ways its like the argument regarding abortion. Rationally I have to be careful to not go too far in enforcing my moral perspective onto others -- no matter how right mine may be -- and how horribly wrong their's most obviously is.

    The problem I have with what you wrote is that I fear that though you took advantage of help you didn't need -- and in so doing made it less available somewhere down the line to someone who did -- you would not be at all inhibited in denigrating people who in genuine need are given far less.

    Currently I've been thinking about the titans of Wall St. who were on the verge of being wiped out because of their hubris and greed. Most were loud defenders and advocates of free market, Laffer Curve, Laissez Faire voodoo-economics.

    They've arrogantly made millions and billions -- while doing little for the benefit of anyone but themselves.

    They would have been amongst the most vociferous voices demanding that someone who couldn't pay their impossibly complex floating rate mortgage be foreclosed on and put onto the street when they couldn't pay the reset interest rate.

    But now its they who are in trouble -- and the very people they would have gladly forced from their homes, will be burdened for decades with an economy sickened by the aftermath of their arrogance, their ignorance.

    Saving them -- and us -- will cost trillions. It will perhaps transform america into being a 3rd world debtor state -- with high interest rates, high debt, high inflation, high unemployment.

    Buchanan and I agree on many things -- most especially that this country has been irreparably damaged by the horror of junior's years in power.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/20/2008 at 01:37 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #549  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Even if that's true,
    What part do you think could be untrue?
    it doesn't then follow that attacking Iraq would have any positive impact on the situation.
    The only possibly 'positive' impact would be that there would eventually be no reason to have troops in Saudi Arabia. Not that having them in Iraq is de facto any better...
    And that wasn't, of course, the stated connection that GWB used to justify the attacks.
    Of course not. Never suggested it was. Didn't even suggest it was a good reason to attack Iraq.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #550  
    Thanks for the Chrome tip Barye. I have chrome but usually keep with IE because it works with password manager. Maybe I'll begin doing all my publishing on the Chrome browser.

    Bad stuff happened on Bushes watch. My simplified version is that he wasn't as conservative as we needed him to be and even the new offerings may be no better. The Democrats... waay worse.

    The 0% for ten year loan I got for 20,000 was simply that and I'm now paying it off. It saved me a TON of money in interest and mortgage insurance. What was remarkable to me was that along with the rather high income allowed to get the loan, one of the limitations stated that on closing of escrow the borrower could not have more than 40,000 dollars left in the bank.. not counting retirenemt accounts. In other words after you put up your 20,000, and the Gov't matches it with 20,000 interest free for ten years, you couldn't have more than 40,000 left. I didn't have a cent left, but why would someone need Govt help if they already had $60,000?

    I can thank my wife for reading the local city paper for that little windfall. It was administrated by our city and funded by the Feds.

    Like I said, I think it was wrong, I wouldn't have approved it.

    Chris Cox (of the SEC) used to be my congressman. I don't want him fired, but someone's got to fry. Like Buchanan said The Party's Over.
  11. #551  
    Quote Originally Posted by WHarropson View Post
    Bad stuff happened on Bushes watch. My simplified version is that he wasn't as conservative as we needed him to be and even the new offerings may be no better. The Democrats... waay worse.
    I'm very confused by that statement. My understanding is that deregulation was a (if not the) cause of this mess. How would being more conservative (i.e. less regulated) help?
  12. #552  
    Quote Originally Posted by WHarropson View Post
    Thanks for the Chrome tip Barye. I have chrome but usually keep with IE because it works with password manager. Maybe I'll begin doing all my publishing on the Chrome browser.
    Ditch the IE and get FireFox.

    Sorry...I know that was off topic, but it had to be said.
    a740 --> a900 --> Katana --> a900 --> a900m --> M1 --> a900m --> PPC6700 --> a900m--> 8400 --> a900m --> Treo 700wx --> Treo 800w
  13. #553  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    One of the most oft-cited reasons for 9/11 was OBL's problems with the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia. The reason for the presence was due to the first Gulf War and keeping tabs on Saddam.
    That's quite a stretch.

    Like six degrees of separation.
  14. #554  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's quite a stretch.
    Quite a stretch for what? That it's peripherally related, that OBL having a problem with the US in Saudi Arabia was a significant motivating factor for 9/11, or that the reason for the significant US presence in Saudi Arabia was due to the first Gulf War and keeping tabs on Saddam?
    Like six degrees of separation.
    That's why I said peripherally related. It's probably more like 3 or 4 degrees.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #555  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's quite a stretch.

    Like six degrees of separation.
    FWIW, The most Royal House of Saud feared (in reverse order of importance):

    Sadamm

    Iran

    The Saudi people.


    After the Kuwait war, Sadamm was essentially neutered as a danger.

    The Iran threat has been growing for decades -- but is mainly seen as one of inspiration for their oppressed Shiites citizens.

    The Osama Bin Laden issue is seen as more insidious in a way -- because its an insider threat -- his Sunni/Wahabiist devotees include members of the Royal family itself, as well as parts of the Saudi National Guard.

    The Saudi have been willing to buy off Bin Laden -- while they are determined to suppress the Shiites.

    Americans are there to protect the House of Saud -- not Saudi Arabia (which is not much threatened externally).
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #556  
    Don't let me change the Iraq subject, I just want to interject that that loan I got was during the Clinton administration.

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/f...-financial-don


    When Bush got the Whitehouse he got there partly by appealing to the same liberal loan policies. I doubt that anyone can make a case that either Democrat candidate in the past or at present would have instituted regs to stop this crisis. I'm encouraged to see no one here claiming Obama is the answer to any of it. If you are I apologise for missing it.

    And regarding deregulation, it was Jimmy carter that deregulated the airline industry. I can disagree with deregulation, and still fall WAAY on the side of Republicans with all their faults. Please do the right thing in this election, hold your nose if you must but vote not to let Obama/Biden in.

    I enjoy John Stewart because he's a clown. He gets away with his humor because he's a clown, and only infrequently because the jokes expose the truth. (Bush has been a great target for jokes) However Stewart is often disgusting and it comes out whenever he talks about Bush ... because he's a hater.

    I'd like to comment on the IRAQ thing, it's an interesting debate, but I won't even attempt to best Tony Blair. Just mark me down as agreeing with the smart guy, Prime Minister Blair. See previous post with link to Blair.
  17. #557  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Quite a stretch for what? That it's peripherally related, that OBL having a problem with the US in Saudi Arabia was a significant motivating factor for 9/11, or that the reason for the significant US presence in Saudi Arabia was due to the first Gulf War and keeping tabs on Saddam?

    That's why I said peripherally related. It's probably more like 3 or 4 degrees.
    There's a large difference between stating it's "peripherally related", and a justification for going to war with Iraq. I realize that you're not claiming that the connection was a good justification for war with Iraq. However, I felt the need to clarify this point.

    If the extent of the connection of Iraq to 911 was that we had a had a presence in Saudi Arabia, then one could make just as compelling an argument that Saudi Arabia is connected to 911, as is Kuwait (because the Gulf War started because we were defending Kuwait from Iraq). We didn't, however, attack Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #558  
    Quote Originally Posted by WHarropson View Post


    And regarding deregulation, it was Jimmy carter that deregulated the airline industry. I can disagree with deregulation, and still fall WAAY on the side of Republicans with all their faults. Please do the right thing in this election, hold your nose if you must but vote not to let Obama/Biden in.
    To be accurate, Congress started committee work during the Ford administration in 1975 and it was signed by Carter in 1978. So I'm certain that both sides have their fingers in it, probably with good intentions.

    But a bigger question than the airline industry is whether deregulation has generally led to this culture of corporate greed - I don't think it can be argued that, because Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act, that Democrats are actually the part of deregulation.

    It would seem that the current response of creating greater government controls seems a very "Democratic" approach, while letting the market decide has been the great contributing factor in this mess. That being said, I'm not an economist, so my understanding may be oversimplified.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  19. #559  
    Quote Originally Posted by WHarropson View Post
    Just mark me down as agreeing with the smart guy, Prime Minister Blair. See previous post with link to Blair.
    I'm certain a majority of Brits would think you're as daffy as Tony for saying that.
  20. #560  
    A majority of brit's aren't as smart as Tony, I'll be daffy with Tony if being smarter is daffy.

    On the finance front, here'a a snippet for your perusal.

    http://www.elizabethdole.org/docs/vi...-20080918.html

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