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  1. #461  
    And if anyone here thinks that Michelle has no influence on her man, then you just have not been listening to her talk.

    Running a presidential race for 2 years makes him eligible to be president? You are really stretching that something fierce. A whirl wind trip to Europe makes him an expert? You are really stretching it. You are right there saying that Obama is qualified to run a major corporation, IBM, for instance and he is capable of uniting this country! Wow, not. When the man damns people of faith, people who believe in limited government, when his own party stated a couple of months ago that education by talking points is not sufficient, that he himself is not qualified...Toby is right on it. We all have our opinions and no matter how hard you tell me that Obama is ready to run IBM, to launch a missle attack, to stand hard on issues (stand hard on an issue more than 1 day), then wow!
  2. #462  
    And yet you think that Palin is capable of being president? You don't see the inherent contradiction?

    I was an undecided voter (and have respected McCain for many years), but Palin's disastrous selection, coupled with the incredible lies being told by McCain's campaign, tells me that he will say or do anything to win. He has sold out his ethics in this campaign - I'm finding it extremely sad.
  3. #463  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Well, you can split the remaining hairs on your avatar all you want.
    LOL. Well, didn't realize I touched that deep a nerve. I see no further useful discussion is going to happen here.
    Actually this is my first response to you, I thought I was just hitting the surface. If it seems deep, Iím sorry, I guess itís my training.
    I was referring to the depth you seem to be taking an observation that a comment was 'bordering on x' to be meant as 'you are x' or 'you always think x', or that such means that the observer is 'projecting', 'uninformed', or a 'republican cheerleader'. That is not at all logical.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #464  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And yet you think that Palin is capable of being president? You don't see the inherent contradiction?
    AAMOF, that's why Ben really doesn't get my point.
    I was an undecided voter (and have respected McCain for many years), but Palin's disastrous selection, coupled with the incredible lies being told by McCain's campaign, tells me that he will say or do anything to win. He has sold out his ethics in this campaign - I'm finding it extremely sad.
    I can't bring myself to vote for either of them at the moment. I could have voted for the McCain of 2000 with a clearer conscience. I can't vote for this new guy. OTOH, Obama's not been shining much lately either. The lipstick flap recently comes to mind. The issue there for me was not the diversion that the Republicans tried to bring up (he obviously wasn't calling Palin a Pig or McCain a fish). It was the way he was struggling and stammering through the speech and having trouble dealing with the aftermath. Don't try to be colloquial if it's not who you are. The really scary thing is at this point, I'd consider voting for Hillary. I think the Clintons are just as divisive in their own way as the Bushes, but at least she could handle herself.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #465  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It was the way he was struggling and stammering through the speech and having trouble dealing with the aftermath.
    Wow. You're a very smart guy, so it surprises me to hear that this is what has you thinking you can't vote for the guy. Frankly, his communication skills are what helped win me over since I think such skills are mandatory for leaders...especially the "leader of the free world." On the whole, he draws thousands from near and far because he is a great communicator with a natural charisma the likes we've not seen since Reagan, MLK, RFK, or JFK.
  6. #466  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post

    I can't bring myself to vote for either of them at the moment. I could have voted for the McCain of 2000 with a clearer conscience. I can't vote for this new guy. OTOH, Obama's not been shining much lately either. The lipstick flap recently comes to mind. The issue there for me was not the diversion that the Republicans tried to bring up (he obviously wasn't calling Palin a Pig or McCain a fish). It was the way he was struggling and stammering through the speech and having trouble dealing with the aftermath. Don't try to be colloquial if it's not who you are. The really scary thing is at this point, I'd consider voting for Hillary. I think the Clintons are just as divisive in their own way as the Bushes, but at least she could handle herself.
    I would easily have voted for McCain of 2000. The recent lying in his ads really bothers me: while others have conducted the same type of campaigns, I was really bothered by the fact that he himself continued the lies during his appearance on the View, even when confronted by the facts.

    All the money in the world couldn't get me to vote for Hillary, for much the same reason. Her distortions were incredible to me.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  7. #467  
    I have a newly found respect for you, Toby. I like people who can see the fault of both parties, which is something I myself struggle to do sometimes (I don't necessarily agree with every viewpoint of my party, though).

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Obama is only a good communicator if he's rehearsed his words. If he's put on the spot, or didn't get enough time to prepare, he stumbles all over those words. He doesn't have natural charisma...it's a facade that he puts on when he has enough time to prepare.

    I don't understand how people, for even a minute, can stop and think that Obama is just like them...that he's just the average Joe trying to make it in America (okay, I hope no one seriously thinks that, but I exaggerated to make a point...people do still think he's somehow better than these other politicians). If he is, then I'm way below average, because I sure can't afford to send my kids (imaginary as they may be) to schools costing upwards of $10,000 a year. Sure...he hides it better than McCain does (as the house fiasco proved), but he's no different. Even with Palin, everybody is saying she's the woman you can relate to, but I'm not buying it.

    The way I see it, all of the people on the ticket are the same. The difference comes down to issues that are important to me, and to the fact that I don't believe Obama would be able to handle a crisis, but McCain at least has a chance of knowing how to take care of it.
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  8. #468  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Wow. You're a very smart guy, so it surprises me to hear that this is what has you thinking you can't vote for the guy. Frankly, his communication skills are what helped win me over since I think such skills are mandatory for leaders...especially the "leader of the free world." On the whole, he draws thousands from near and far because he is a great communicator with a natural charisma the likes we've not seen since Reagan, MLK, RFK, or JFK.
    We are in agreement for the most part. His communication skills in the past are what put him in the running for me. I'm just struggling to understand how the same guy can make that sort of stumble. If my party weren't running Barr, I'd likely have no quandary in this election. But they are, so I'm getting close to the point of Obama or sitting out. I really didn't like his performance in the Saddleback forum, and I don't think he did himself much service with the lipstick comment (and more importantly how he let the other side make that much hay out of it). Sad to say that at this point, I'm still undecided and probably going to let debate performance weigh heavier than it usually does.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #469  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    We are in agreement for the most part. His communication skills in the past are what put him in the running for me. I'm just struggling to understand how the same guy can make that sort of stumble. If my party weren't running Barr, I'd likely have no quandary in this election. But they are, so I'm getting close to the point of Obama or sitting out. I really didn't like his performance in the Saddleback forum, and I don't think he did himself much service with the lipstick comment (and more importantly how he let the other side make that much hay out of it). Sad to say that at this point, I'm still undecided and probably going to let debate performance weigh heavier than it usually does.
    Well it is an exercise of picking the lesser of evils, so I can understand. Obama has his problems, no doubt about it. But I think he'll do fine in the debates. I have no doubt he'll do more to heal this nation and our global standing than any of the remaining candidates.

    One thing I recommend to everyone no matter which side of the isle you think you are on - go the candidate's web site and read about their positions on your own. I have found that many of my friends simply rely on the media and "gotchya politics" to form their opinion on the candidate's views when more often than not, their position is articulated quite clearly on their web site. Granted, not all of it will be true since the web sites are inherently resumes...and everyone embellishes their resume. Still, one must have a base level understanding of their positions before you can allow the media to shape your opinion of them.
  10. #470  
    This is a pretty specific summary (by CNN) of how your taxes will be affected under either candidate, based upon how much you make. It's less than 3 minutes, but it may be worth watching:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/pol...ef=videosearch
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  11. #471  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    This is a pretty specific summary (by CNN) of how your taxes will be affected under either candidate, based upon how much you make. It's less than 3 minutes, but it may be worth watching:

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/pol...ef=videosearch
    Thanks for pointing that out. I found their breakdown table to be quite illuminating:


    That would actually make a good Cafe Press t-shirt too.
  12. #472  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. I found their breakdown table to be quite illuminating:


    That would actually make a good Cafe Press t-shirt too.

    indeed it would.

    Because it sure hasn't yet been a good TV commercial or sound bite yet.

    (to repeat what I've said previously -- Obama is probably going to barely eke out a win -- but only because the economy is so awful that it overcomes all of Obama's multitude of weaknesses)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #473  
    Gosh, you mentioned his multitude of weaknesses. Even with dozens of experts to help him out, those experts are not the ones who have to make the decision. Did not one great Democrat recently say something similar to learning on the job, and was that comment not directly pointed at Obama? Obama who is now qualified to run the world. Wow.

    You mention the economy, yeah, it has problems. But who blocked bunches of the measures put forth? Back in 2005 McCain submitted...who blocked it. Bush submitted...who blocked it.

    And now Nancy wants to drill 50 miles out...well the "experts" say the oil is not out at the 50 mile marker, but closer in. Who really is playing the politics game trying to make it look like she is really trying. Nancy, our hero.
  14. #474  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Gosh, you mentioned his multitude of weaknesses. Even with dozens of experts to help him out, those experts are not the ones who have to make the decision. Did not one great Democrat recently say something similar to learning on the job, and was that comment not directly pointed at Obama? Obama who is now qualified to run the world. Wow.

    You mention the economy, yeah, it has problems. But who blocked bunches of the measures put forth? Back in 2005 McCain submitted...who blocked it. Bush submitted...who blocked it.

    And now Nancy wants to drill 50 miles out...well the "experts" say the oil is not out at the 50 mile marker, but closer in. Who really is playing the politics game trying to make it look like she is really trying. Nancy, our hero.
    I take it you are never going to respond to McCain's lies above, then? I was certain that you wouldn't. This article, from a journalist who had been very much a McCain supporter, sums up the reasons why I'm so disappointed in a candidate that I used to have great respect for: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091502406.html

    Are you going to respond, with some data, to CNN's report about the fact that Obama will be lowering taxes to 80-90% of people? You won't, but I'll keep asking you about it because it confronts the inaccuracies that you post.

    Hmm....making outlandish claims and never backing them up. When confronted by the truth, ignoring the facts and going on to the next outlandish claims. Repeat pattern ad nauseum. Sounds like a person interested in discussion: my new promise to myself is to stop responding to trollish posts.
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/17/2008 at 08:28 AM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  15. #475  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. I found their breakdown table to be quite illuminating:


    That would actually make a good Cafe Press t-shirt too.
    Wonder why they left a gap there. What happens to those folks?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #476  
    I'll believe Obama's tax cuts when I see them...and hopefully I won't have to.
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  17. #477  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    You mention the economy, yeah, it has problems. But who blocked bunches of the measures put forth? Back in 2005 McCain submitted...who blocked it. Bush submitted...who blocked it.
    You're lying again Ben. I know the truth is very hard for you to swallow, but the fact is Bush proposed those ideas when the GOP was in control of ALL branches of government.

    And the Dems were not alone in stopping Chuck Hagel's bill you keep talking about (that McCain didn't co-sponsor until 2007) as the GOP also stopped it.

    Seems to me that whole "personal responsibility" thing you claim to value so much is just a sham Ben. You're trying so hard to make the Dems more guilty than they are for the mess we are in - all the while you're contradicting your supposed core values by finding ways to deflect blame from the guys that were in charge.

    Let me quote one of your other heroes Ben, "I'm the decider". Yup, he sure was - it would be nice to see him man up for once to one of his many many many colossal blunders . And thanks to the GOP and Bush and their trickle-down economic, unregulated greedy economic policies, this country is in financial ruin.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/17/2008 at 10:13 AM.
  18. #478  
    Quote Originally Posted by Freak4Dell View Post
    I'll believe Obama's tax cuts when I see them...and hopefully I won't have to.
    Well then, here they are. Try not to go cross-eyed in disbelief.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/17/2008 at 10:27 AM.
  19. #479  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Wonder why they left a gap there. What happens to those folks?
    There's a couple gaps. > 38k and then 112 - 227k.

    Those are the people who get screwed no matter who's elected.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  20. #480  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    There's a couple gaps. > 38k and then 112 - 227k.

    Those are the people who get screwed no matter who's elected.
    Surely you jest (and no, I did not just call you Shirley). Again, I'm sure this was for brevity in the graphic. The table I've attached tells all, doesn't it?

    One of the areas of interest to me is for small business owners. Obama says he notches out the small biz folks that are over $250k - and of course, McSame claims that Obama will hurt small biz. I need to read the report and Obama's plan in more detail to be clear myself.

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