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  1.    #1  
    As most probably know by now, I am neither a Hillary nor an Obama fan, but the idea that Michigan and Florida votes aren't being counted is extremely worrisome. Is this really how our democracy works?! whoa.

    From what I gather, since these primaries were held earlier than party rules allowed, the votes aren't counted. Is this the whole story for both states?

    In any case, these votes ABSOLUTELY should be counted. Again, I'm by no means a Hillary proponent, but it is offensive to me that because of some absurd party rules, democracy is seriously crippled into a shell if itself like this.

    If people thought the Bush/ Gore decision was unjust, why aren't they storming the streets, up in arms about THIS insult to our democracy?

    Obama, while he IS in the lead, could be accused of crooked election scams as George Bush was after he was awarded the presidency following recount controversies.

    I don't understand this. Democrats clamored like hell to make sure votes were recounted for Gore, why are they not doing this for Hillary?

    . I must be missing something, because this simply doesn't seem right in even the slightest sense. This is America?

    Unreal.
  2. #2  
    We are largely in agreement.

    Its incomprehensible to me that the dems punished voters for the sins of officials.

    If those officials knowingly took or supported actions that violated rules from headquarters, rules that headquarters wanted to discourage others from violating -- they should have punished liable officials. (banning them from the convention, denying them national party suppport in their election, etc.)

    Or even as the GOP did, cutting their delegations in half.

    What's even worse is that the plan to move up the primary was largely the product of FL GOP machinations

    (btw, Hobbes, Shopharim, and I discussed this some weeks/months ago) --
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/22/2008 at 12:48 AM.
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  3. #3  
    I've typically opted out of political discussions on forums, but I'd like to share my thoughts on this topic if I may.

    If the constituents of Florida and Michigan are to be upset with anyone, it appears to me that it should be with their own state governments. Afterall, they were the ones that decided to knowingly "break" the rules while being cognizant of the repercussions. No one was upset about the fact that these votes wouldn't count when this punishment was initially handed down. Not that I recall reading about. Not Hillary or Barack...again, that I recall. I don't remember anyone saying, "No these votes must be counted"...until Hillary fell behind. Both democratic "runners" agreed to not campaign in either state, but after Hillary lost South Carolina she went against that and went straight to Florida. Now, it's very likely that had Barack found himself behind that he would've likely done the same. I'm not assuming he wouldn't, however, that's not the situation we find ourselves in...so I can't say with certainty. Who can?

    Now, I of course think that every single vote in America should be counted BUT rules are rules and no one was this upset about them until most recently. Not one candidate spoke up with vengeance when these two states initially made these changes, they simply agreed to not campaign there, to the best of my recollection. I don't remember Hillary or Barack making a stink about this back then. Now, is the punishment stiff? Yes. Unreasonable? Yes, I'd agree to that. But this is EXACTLY why we, as Americans, need to take our liberties and rights seriously. The residents of Michigan and Florida (as a whole) voted these people into office who in turn betrayed them and stripped them of their inalienable rights. Not Barack or Hillary. I agree the punishment should've been focused on the officials and not the citizens, but the rule was on the book and clearly stated for all to see prior to Michigan and Florida saying "The hell with the rules." And you can't un-ring a bell.

    These rules weren't made or broken by Hillary or Barack and I DO feel it's very unfortunate/unfair for Hillary who is being portrayed as dishonest in her actions, for Barack who is likely to be accused of bad politics/cheating, and for the residents of these states. If I were a resident in either state I'd be pissed...but at my state government who didn't have enough respect for me to allow me to lift my voice and have it be heard. These states knew the ramifications of their decision when it was made. They consciously broke the rules and now the natural consequences must follow, it's just how things work. I'm not saying I agree with the consequence, but it was clearly outlined prior to these events taking place. Of course this is just my opinion/perspective, but now that the deed has been done, I think three things need to be done: 1) residents of Michigan and Florida need to vote OUT of office those that betrayed them, 2) they (as we all do) need to be more conscious and informed of who they vote to represent them AND 3) the DNC needs to revise this policy/rule.

    It would be wonderful if some type of fair and ethical amendment/agreement could be made, but I don't see how (financially and with time constraints pending) that anything can be done at this late stage.


    *sits down and hopes stones aren't thrown too hard at her*
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohappydaye View Post

    ...If the constituents of Florida and Michigan are to be upset with anyone, it appears to me that it should be with their own state governments. Afterall, they were the ones that decided to knowingly "break" the rules while being cognizant of the repercussions. No one was upset about the fact that these votes wouldn't count when this punishment was initially handed down. Not that I recall reading about. Not Hillary or Barack...again, that I recall. I don't remember anyone saying, "No these votes must be counted"...until Hillary fell behind. Both democratic "runners" agreed to not campaign in either state, but after Hillary lost South Carolina she went against that and went straight to Florida. Now, it's very likely that had Barack found himself behind that he would've likely done the same. I'm not assuming he wouldn't, however, that's not the situation we find ourselves in...so I can't say with certainty. Who can?

    Now, I of course think that every single vote in America should be counted BUT rules are rules and no one was this upset about them until most recently. Not one candidate spoke up with vengeance when these two states initially made these changes, they simply agreed to not campaign there, to the best of my recollection. I don't remember Hillary or Barack making a stink about this back then. Now, is the punishment stiff? Yes. Unreasonable? Yes, I'd agree to that. But this is EXACTLY why we, as Americans, need to take our liberties and rights seriously. The residents of Michigan and Florida (as a whole) voted these people into office who in turn betrayed them and stripped them of their inalienable rights. Not Barack or Hillary. I agree the punishment should've been focused on the officials and not the citizens, but the rule was on the book and clearly stated for all to see prior to Michigan and Florida saying "The hell with the rules." And you can't un-ring a bell...


    Getting voters to participate and vote in America is no small thing.

    To punish THEM after they came out and cast their ballots in good faith is pathetic and self destructive.

    If you must, you hold responsible and punish those officials who had the power to do something.

    To construct some indirect sequence where citizens become responsible for the enforcement of arcane party rules in regard to primary date scheduling is beyond absurd as to be laughable.



    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    NEITHER campaigned in EITHER state.

    Yet it was she who won overwhelmingly in Florida where they were both on the ballot. (In Michigan she won by a big margin over none of the above. Its actually tough to get people to come out to vote when there's only one name on the ballot.)

    The people of Florida and Michigan were powerless in the fight to move up their primaries.

    The proper response by the DNC should have been to deny creditials to any state democrat who supported moving up the primary date. Punishing the average voter was the dumbest thing I 've ever heard of.

    In any case the voters by voting called the DNC's bluff. Their votes must be counted.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    imagine if the states where the voters were being excluded were S Carolina and Mississipi -- imagine if their vote was the difference between Obama being behind or in the lead.

    what would the outcry be then ???

    Voters must NEVER be punished for voting in good faith !!!
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/21/2008 at 07:45 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    As most probably know by now, I am neither a Hillary nor an Obama fan, but the idea that Michigan and Florida votes aren't being counted is extremely worrisome. Is this really how our democracy works?! whoa.
    Yes, even domocracy has rules.

    In any case, these votes ABSOLUTELY should be counted. Again, I'm by no means a Hillary proponent, but it is offensive to me that because of some absurd party rules, democracy is seriously crippled into a shell if itself like this.
    It makes no sense to have the past election counted. Obama's name was not even on the ballot in one state. How many times must that be stated. Neither obama nor edwards traveled to MI or FL. And if you go back, MI and FL could have been the state that Edwards broke out.... or how about if the latino vote boosted bill richardson.... so should we REDO all the entire process?

    The problem with going back is that you can't go back. The damage is done. If anything going back cheats more than just hillary, it cheats obama, edwards, richardson, etc... everyone who had a stake in the process. If they would have known MI and FL would have counted they WOULD have planned things differently.

    If people thought the Bush/ Gore decision was unjust, why aren't they storming the streets, up in arms about THIS insult to our democracy?

    Obama, while he IS in the lead, could be accused of crooked election scams as George Bush was after he was awarded the presidency following recount controversies.
    So a man who is only following the rules, did not make the rules, did not have a say in breaking the rules, or a say in fl or mi at all should be accused of a crooked election scam? Push away from the computer... That is not rational thinking.


    I don't understand this. Democrats clamored like hell to make sure votes were recounted for Gore, why are they not doing this for Hillary?
    Much different circumstances.


    I must be missing something, because this simply doesn't seem right in even the slightest sense. This is America?

    Unreal.
    Unfortunately, no one was bothered with the changes in FL and MI until it became apparent that both states REALLY mattered.

    No one was crying STOP when the rules were changing. Obama did not care since the demographics of fl did not bode well for him. Edwards did not care since he knew he was burnt anyway. Hillary did not care since the process would be all over by the end of Feb and she would be the nominee. She did not need FL or MI.

    Now we move forward and both states are a big deal. Hillary has brainwashed people into thinking we can just "count" the votes in FL and MI. Uh, no, you can't.

    The rules were rather plain and simple... Far as the people being punished vs. the officials, the officials represent the people so they should be dealt with by the people when it is time for elections.

    At this point, I don't think either FL or MI matters... obama is the nonminee, regardless.
    Last edited by theog; 05/21/2008 at 08:12 PM.
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  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Getting voters to participate and vote in America is no small thing.

    To punish THEM after they came out and cast their ballots in good faith is pathetic and self destructive.

    If you must, you hold responsible and punish those officials who had the power to do something.

    To construct some indirect sequence where citizens become responsible for the enforcement of arcane party rules in regard to primary date scheduling is beyond absurd as to be laughable.
    I'm not sure what you read or did not read in my post, but I agree with you. Citizens shouldn't be punished for the dumb decisions of officials. But where were we, any of us...where was our disgust and willingness to fight this when the ruling was initially handed down? When there was more of a chance of something being done?

    As for the latter part of your post, isn't that what we do though? Isn't that the purpose of voting in the first place? To elect people who we feel will represent our best interests as citizens, who we can trust to write laws to protect us and follow those that ensure our freedoms?
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohappydaye View Post
    I'm not sure what you read or did not read in my post, but I agree with you. Citizens shouldn't be punished for the dumb decisions of officials. But where were we, any of us...
    cool...


    As for the latter part of your post, isn't that what we do though? Isn't that the purpose of voting in the first place? To elect people who we feel will represent our best interests as citizens, who we can trust to write laws to protect us and follow those that ensure our freedoms?

    the reality is that the average citizen knows more about for whom they vote on American Idol, than at their local voting booth.

    The only way to create a system that acts the way that some are advocating (holding voters responsible for everything their representatives do) is to only enable qualified citizens to participate.

    This would require a test of knowledge of the issues in contention, a test of general history knowledge, and perhaps a minimum threshhold of property holdings to establish that you have a vested stake in govenment decisions.

    If BARYE was in charge, literacy would not be required per se. In the interest of democracy and fairness, if requested the test could optionally be given orally (in fact, human female voters would be encouraged to perform the test orally...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    the reality is that the average citizen knows more about for whom they vote on American Idol, than at their local voting booth.
    My point exactly and it both saddens and angers me. I stated in my first post that we all need to take the voting of our officials (local and state officials) just as serious as we do our presidential elections...and dare I say it, as "important" as Idol voting is to some. Though, I don't believe it requires as much as you indicate (a test, or owning property to ensure a vested interest in the process) to make certain that people are well versed on these matters and/or persons. There are thousands of media outlets that present varying sides of the issues and official's records. Yes, many (all? lol) are biased, but if you give your attention to all of them you'll find the truth somewhere in the middle.

    This isn't going to make any difference for Michigan or Florida, but when we teach our children the importance of voting, when we show them with our own actions we will have a generation of voters who believe they make a difference, who will seek out the knowledge they need to make informed decisions such as this and be empowered by it. (As an aside, I believe this is beginning to manifest moreso than it has in previous years.) This, as opposed to coming out to vote for the Presidential candidate, but having no idea who any of the other people or issues on the ballot regarding their immediate environment/state are about. This troubles me greatly....but I digress, as it is a bit tangential.

    As for the human females taking this "test" orally....I will chose to see that as a "tongue in cheek" statement and not be offended.
  9. #9  
    Ben's Blog:

    Clinton compares the Florida and Michigan fight to civil rights movement

    BOCA RATON, Fla. - Hillary Clinton compared her effort to seat Florida and Michigan delegates to epic American struggles, including those to free the slaves and win the right to vote for blacks and women.

    The current stalemate over the two states' primary votes threatens to replicate the disputed 2000 presidential election in Florida, she warned an elderly crowd in Palm Beach County - one of the jurisdictions where Democrats allege voters were disenfranchised in 2000.
    The only thing she will do is damage Obama's chance in Nov.

    I've often said that was not her agenda, but it is looking more and more that is her exact agenda.

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi..._movement.html
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohappydaye View Post
    .

    This isn't going to make any difference for Michigan or Florida, but when we teach our children the importance of voting, when we show them with our own actions we will have a generation of voters who believe they make a difference, who will seek out the knowledge they need to make informed decisions such as this and be empowered by it...
    We agree.

    If I were ever serious, I would advocate participation as a value in and of itself.

    Participation -- even with ignorance -- at least makes people into citizens whose needs must be at least minimally catered to. Participation even has the potential to make people informed.

    The gravest danger that American's as a group pose to the planet is their collective ignorance. An ignorance that has them getting most of their "knowledge" from Rush and faux news, that mindlessly enabled them to be scammed into supporting junior's easy little war.

    If the democrats win big (despite nominating a weak Prez candidate) it will only be because things have gotten so bad that the reality of people's lives completely overwhelmed the persuasive propaganda so craftily spun by the GOP and its apologists.


    My point exactly and it both saddens and angers me. I stated in my first post that we all need to take the voting of our officials (local and state officials) just as serious as we do our presidential elections...and dare I say it, as "important" as Idol voting is to some. Though, I don't believe it requires as much as you indicate (a test, or owning property to ensure a vested interest in the process) to make certain...

    As for the human females taking this "test" orally....I will chose to see that as a "tongue in cheek" statement and not be offended.
    FWIW -- under BARYE's plan, simian females (and males) would be entirely exempted from any test...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Yes, even domocracy has rules.



    It makes no sense to have the past election counted. Obama's name was not even on the ballot in one state. How many times must that be stated. Neither obama nor edwards traveled to MI or FL. And if you go back, MI and FL could have been the state that Edwards broke out.... or how about if the latino vote boosted bill richardson.... so should we REDO all the entire process?

    The problem with going back is that you can't go back. The damage is done. If anything going back cheats more than just hillary, it cheats obama, edwards, richardson, etc... everyone who had a stake in the process. If they would have known MI and FL would have counted they WOULD have planned things differently.






    So a man who is only following the rules, did not make the rules, did not have a say in breaking the rules, or a say in fl or mi at all should be accused of a crooked election scam? Push away from the computer... That is not rational thinking.




    Much different circumstances.




    Unfortunately, no one was bothered with the changes in FL and MI until it became apparent that both states REALLY mattered.

    No one was crying STOP when the rules were changing. Obama did not care since the demographics of fl did not bode well for him. Edwards did not care since he knew he was burnt anyway. Hillary did not care since the process would be all over by the end of Feb and she would be the nominee. She did not need FL or MI.

    Now we move forward and both states are a big deal. Hillary has brainwashed people into thinking we can just "count" the votes in FL and MI. Uh, no, you can't.

    The rules were rather plain and simple... Far as the people being punished vs. the officials, the officials represent the people so they should be dealt with by the people when it is time for elections.

    At this point, I don't think either FL or MI matters... obama is the nonminee, regardless.
    First of all, get off the condescending tone here, theog.

    "Even democracy has rules" Dude, please.

    There are rules and then there are incredibly asinine rules which should be abolished. The FL and MICH situation falls into the latter category. Period.

    Its incredible to me that you are ok with the fact that the votes of two entire states are being disregarded. Stunning, in fact. Rules or no rules, this is just simply wrong. Who the hell cares WHEN a primary is held? The fact is people voted. Who gives a damn if it was a day or two before it should have been held? You`re going to discount a whole state because of that? Now THAT, by definition, is irrational. period. end of story. These "rules" are an exercise in idiocy rather than that of a democracy.

    I take issue with this now because of how close this race is, AS WAS BUSH/GORE.
    its especially critical to count them all in order to determine the undisputed winner. There is NOTHING irrational about this, pal. Dont talk to me about what is and what isnt rational thinking. Rather presumptious, i think.
    Last edited by logmein; 05/22/2008 at 12:03 AM.
  12. #12  
    Florida and Michigan were aware of the consequences and proceeded to do as they pleased. The people in those states need to look at their "leadership" and place the blame where it belongs. What is a shame is that the Democrat party has rules that itself cannot agree upon. Would it be right to count them? probably, but the rules are the rules and they "knew" the rules and consequences.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohappydaye View Post
    My point exactly and it both saddens and angers me. I stated in my first post that we all need to take the voting of our officials (local and state officials) just as serious as we do our presidential elections...

    ...I will chose to see that as a "tongue in cheek" statement and not be offended.
    Ohappydaye -- welcome.

    Hearing from more points of view makes us all smarter.

    (FWIW, this forum is the most fun and interesting when it has the most participation, and the widest range of views. I'm really saddened that the forum has recently lost many of it formerly active conservative voices...You're welcome anyway though )
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/22/2008 at 01:20 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    First of all, get off the condescending tone here, theog.

    "Even democracy has rules" Dude, please.

    There are rules and then there are incredibly asinine rules which should be abolished. The FL and MICH situation falls into the latter category. Period.

    Its incredible to me that you are ok with the fact that the votes of two entire states are being disregarded. Stunning, in fact. Rules or no rules, this is just simply wrong. Who the hell cares WHEN a primary is held? The fact is people voted. Who gives a damn if it was a day or two before it should have been held? You`re going to discount a whole state because of that? Now THAT, by definition, is irrational. period. end of story. These "rules" are an exercise in idiocy rather than that of a democracy.

    I take issue with this now because of how close this race is, AS WAS BUSH/GORE.
    its especially critical to count them all in order to determine the undisputed winner. There is NOTHING irrational about this, pal. Dont talk to me about what is and what isnt rational thinking. Rather presumptious, i think.
    I was not attemting to be presumptious or condecending... sorry you "felt" that I was, I was not.

    You totatally missed the real argument I made, or at least you did not comment on it.

    The real argument is how do you "go back" and count those votes now? You can't. You are stating an issue, but I'm not reading your solution.

    My solution is that we carry on with the rules we have in place now and the people of FL and MI elect better officals (or officials who appoint smart people in their jobs... obviously, someone was not very bright when they broke the rules). You won't have new elections and you can't use the election results already taken.

    But the issues are very clear:

    1) obama, edwards and others did not campaigne in MI or FL.
    2) Obama was not on the ballot in one state.
    3) No one claims to have money to pay for another election in either state. (note: Obama has said he would support another election in either state, if it were held -- that is a fact, no matter how much you want to make obama be the "bad" guy in all of this [ref: crooked election scams]).
    4) The rules were simple and clear.
    5) No one complained before hand (far as I know).

    Specifically, hillary thought this would be over in Feb and she would march on to win in Nov... Who cared about FL and MI? See, those are two states that "favor" her. Well FL does for sure with its older residents and latino voters. MI, she might have done ok there.... but obama could have won that one. Obama also would have hit FL hard as well... no way would he have skipped FL. I'm thinking he might have performed ok there as well, but it is clear hillary would have won it (I believe).

    Then you have the fact that hillary had limited funds... she would have ran out of money a lot quicker than she did had fl and mi been in play. She might not had enough money to put towards ca, oh, tx, etc, if fl and mi were in play... or she might have skipped more states allowing obama to win two or three more.

    Edwards and Richardson might have stayed in the races had FL and MI counted... at least richardson for sure.

    Taken those facts, I'm shocked anyone would want to now count the votes in place. There are many "what ifs" that can't be answered.... with mi and fl in the mix things could be better or worse for her.... but as they stand you can't simply "sit" those votes and they have any meaning... they won't.

    It is not a matter of me being "ok" with the fact these votes won't be counted... it is a matter of where do we go from here.

    Heck, if you get lost in the woods, sitting back and being mad about the fact you got lost won't help you any.

    No, I'm not mad and don't need to vent... if this is that type of thread, guess I'll be out of place.... I need to know where do we go from here... obama is the nominee and we have a general election to kick off... I'm ready to let those 527s out the gate! Ready for the fireworks and popcorn! Hillary is spoiling the party....

    At the end, I think they will sit MI and FL... but it will be a "goodwill" gesture only. One to appease (I love that word this week) hillary supporters. It won't change the fact that obama is the nominee. That is for sure.....

    What is your plan to sit those votes?
    Last edited by theog; 05/22/2008 at 02:32 AM. Reason: Changed "obama will be the nominee" to "obama is the nominee."
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  15. #15  
    For all those blaming the Republicans... while I'm sure the republicans had "something" to do with it, in many cases the dems went right along. Even in FL the dems went along with the plan since they were getting someting in return (a paper trail for voting machines).... but there were other statements.....

    This caps off my posts and thought on the issue... it says a lot.

    Some people need to be fired... and the people of fl and mi need to remember names.

    Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

    "If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."
    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,5268295.story

    On 23 September 2007 the Florida Democrats responded:

    "After months of careful deliberations, your Party's leaders have chosen overwhelmingly to reaffirm our strong commitment to fully participating in the state-run Democratic Presidential Primary on January 29, 2008, despite the penalties from the Democratic National Committee. ....

    Sincerely,

    Congresswoman Karen L. Thurman
    Chairwoman, Florida Democratic Party"
    Michigan:


    The Michigan House of Representatives passed SB 0624 67-34 on Thursday 30 August 2007. The bill sets 15 January 2008 as the date for Michigan's Presidential Primary. The legislation now awaits approval from Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm who has previously stated that she supports the bill.

    On 4 September 2007, Governor Jennifer Granholm (Democrat) signed Senate Bill 0624, which moves the Michigan presidential primary to 15 January 2008.

    House Bill 5353 (2007) was introduced on 24 October 2007. This bill would repeal the 15 January 2008 Presidential Preference Primary.

    On 8 November 2007 the Michigan Senate voted 26-9 on a bill to restore the primary in a way that could pass legal muster. However, a procedural motion to make the bill law before 1 March 2008 failed.



    http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Ohappydaye -- welcome.

    Hearing from more points of view makes us all smarter.

    (FWIW, this forum is the most fun and interesting when it has the most participation, and the widest range of views. I'm really saddened that the forum has recently lost many of it formerly active conservative voices...You're welcome anyway though )
    Thank you very much for such a warm and kind welcome! I very much enjoy that we can debate/discuss the issues without taking/making things personal. I've very much enjoyed our exchanges here. <Bows to BARYE> : )
    Last edited by Ohappydaye; 05/22/2008 at 07:25 AM. Reason: added a word
  17. #17  
    The bottom line is that these rules were set by the Political Parties, not by the government . Both parties punished each state according the rules (and consequences) on the books that everyone involved knew about before they took action. The head of the Florida Dem party is quoted as in full support of moving the date and was proud to be part of moving the dates (another post on this HERE).

    What most people don't realize is that each state faced the consequences by the Rep party according to their rules on the books at the time as well. As a result half of all the Rep state delegates were not legitimate to be counted. It is just a big issue because the Dems made the same rule but put their consequence that ALL of theirs would not be legitmate.

    Before we go too far, we must establish who is to blame for all of the Dem delegates to be not counted. Is is the Dem National Party leaders that put this consequence in their rules along with all subsequent National Dem Leaders that allowed it remain on the books? Is the state party leaders that went along with going against the known rules without any public protest....until after they were called to be held accountable for their own actions?

    You just continue to disenfranchise voters if you change the rules halfway through the game. Imagine what would happen if in the beginning of the 4th Q of the Super Bowl the refs decided to change the rules that would have made a penalty that was issued against a team in the 2nd Q that prevented them from getting a touch down as now a legal move as if the penalty should never have been issued to begin with? You need to start over with the new rules so everyone is on the same playing field. If not, then one side will have a lingering grudge against the other with a real or perceived advantage for the other candidate that they do not personally support. This would be a perfect recipe for a divided party come Nov just waiting to be thrown on the stove to simmer.

    The leaders who are responsible for putting the voters in this mess MUST be singled out and held accountable.

    The only way to not disrespect the voters ultimately is to hold another election....which the DNC who made the rule with the consequence is not willing to pay for....and the state that willingly voted themselves into violation of the known rules are not willing to pay for it.

    As a result the only solutions I can see is, comply with the rules that are still in place and ignore the delegates from these two states. Or evenly divide them up among all campaigns that were active at the time.

    Then correct the situation so we are never in it again.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/22/2008 at 12:43 PM.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post
    As most probably know by now, I am neither a Hillary nor an Obama fan, but the idea that Michigan and Florida votes aren't being counted is extremely worrisome. Is this really how our democracy works?! whoa.

    From what I gather, since these primaries were held earlier than party rules allowed, the votes aren't counted. Is this the whole story for both states?

    In any case, these votes ABSOLUTELY should be counted. Again, I'm by no means a Hillary proponent, but it is offensive to me that because of some absurd party rules, democracy is seriously crippled into a shell if itself like this.

    If people thought the Bush/ Gore decision was unjust, why aren't they storming the streets, up in arms about THIS insult to our democracy?

    Obama, while he IS in the lead, could be accused of crooked election scams as George Bush was after he was awarded the presidency following recount controversies.

    I don't understand this. Democrats clamored like hell to make sure votes were recounted for Gore, why are they not doing this for Hillary?

    . I must be missing something, because this simply doesn't seem right in even the slightest sense. This is America?

    Unreal.
    No. The state Democratic parties were told they would not be included in the nomination process if they moved their dates. They did so. Half their delegates will be seated and likely split evenly.

    Thanks for playing but this process is done. Get in line.
  19. #19  
    The democratic is not democracy. Primaries are not general elections. If democrats don't like the rules, then change the DNC leadership.

    Not that it matters...Obama will be the nominee, and MaCain will win in November. I'm not a MaCain or GOP fan, just looking at the reality of situation.
  20. #20  
    left a word out in the above post. "The democratic party is not a democracy."
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