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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You know, I watched an interesting video from last year, from Dan Rather Presents, where he goes into depth on the new touchscreen voting systems, and how they were unreliable, (and how the paper ballots used in 2000 were lower quality, and workers from that company believe it was to push for the electronic systems that nobody was buying prior)... regardless, whether the paper ballot part is true or not, the main point I want to make is that the whole thing to push the primaries up in Florida was buried on the same bill that was to get rid of the defective touchscreen voting systems, which was pushed for by a Republican governor, who I have a feeling was pretty sure of the consequences of moving the date forward.
    The facts are true, but the assumptions are not. There was a Rep Gov at the time. It was included in a much larger bill. But if you look at my post above (post #17) I have a link that includes a quote from the head of Florida State Dem Party that basically says that she knew about moving the Primary Date, she supported it, and that she was happy to vote for it. I also heard yesterday by Wolf on CNN that the DNC contacted both Mich and FL state Dem Parties BEFORE they voted on it and warned them of the consequences on the books if they went thru with moving the primary dates and yet both Dem State leaders went ahead and voted on it. Plain and simply....they knew about the consequences yet they supported and were happy to vote for the move.

    Prior to this all hitting the fan and being held accountable for acting with support against the known rules and consequences, not one person complained about being forced into this, not one person spoke about the consequences that will be paid by the voters. Again see my post above for complete details and cites.

    Personally I think giving each delegate half a vote and dividing them up evening among all active campaigns is a fair solution at this point now that a re-vote is out of the question.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    The facts are true, but the assumptions are not. There was a Rep Gov at the time. It was included in a much larger bill. But if you look at my post above (post #17) I have a link that includes a quote from the head of Florida State Dem Party that basically says that she knew about moving the Primary Date, she supported it, and that she was happy to vote for it. I also heard yesterday by Wolf on CNN that the DNC contacted both Mich and FL state Dem Parties BEFORE they voted on it and warned them of the consequences on the books if they went thru with moving the primary dates and yet both Dem State leaders went ahead and voted on it. Plain and simply....they knew about the consequences yet they supported and were happy to vote for the move.

    Prior to this all hitting the fan and being held accountable for acting with support against the known rules and consequences, not one person complained about being forced into this, not one person spoke about the consequences that will be paid by the voters. Again see my post above for complete details and cites.

    Personally I think giving each delegate half a vote and dividing them up evening among all active campaigns is a fair solution at this point now that a re-vote is out of the question.
    Well, glad to see that the politicians knew what they were voting for.

    Also it should be pointed out that there were 12 Clinton supporters on the rules committee at the time of the initial ruling before all this happened, and not one of them complained then. A single Obama supporter wasn't in favor of it, but obviously had been outvoted.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    You know, I watched an interesting video from last year, from Dan Rather Presents, where he goes into depth on the new touchscreen voting systems, and how they were unreliable, (and how the paper ballots used in 2000 were lower quality, and workers from that company believe it was to push for the electronic systems that nobody was buying prior)... regardless, whether the paper ballot part is true or not, the main point I want to make is that the whole thing to push the primaries up in Florida was buried on the same bill that was to get rid of the defective touchscreen voting systems, which was pushed for by a Republican governor, who I have a feeling was pretty sure of the consequences of moving the date forward.
    What you are saying might be true... it is not the total truth.

    The part you missed is WHY the dems went along with moving the vote date?

    It was to get a paper trail with the new voting systems. Well, that is a major part of the reason or why some were so bent on moving the date and keeping the current date even against the wishes of the dnc.

    So the republicans in FL won't be able to "fix" votes as you suggest for fear of recount using the paper trail*. I'd love to agree with you though.

    *how or if this paper trail was implemented, I don't know....
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Personally I think giving each delegate half a vote and dividing them up evening among all active campaigns is a fair solution at this point now that a re-vote is out of the question.
    This is all such a mess... much too bad hillary had to take it this far...

    As I said before, they will attempt some type of "noble gesture" to keep the natives of fl and mi happy... it will be empty but as long as people "believe" their vote will count, that is the main point. Right? lol

    Personally, I think it pulls away from the fact the voters need to be mad as hell at the officials... or at least understand the full reason dates changed and see if they can forgive the officials....
    Last edited by theog; 05/28/2008 at 05:47 PM.
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Also it should be pointed out that there were 12 Clinton supporters on the rules committee at the time of the initial ruling before all this happened, and not one of them complained then. A single Obama supporter wasn't in favor of it, but obviously had been outvoted.
    I remember hearing something about that today too, but did not catch all the numbers. One reason I have never really cared much for the Clintons is that they have always and consistently been master opportunist without much thought for the people.....I mean to the extreme even by WA DC standards. This is a classic example. As long as it was in her favor (or rather no need of their advantage) not to have the votes count, it was not an concern or issue for her. Now that she desperately needs them (as well as a vehicle to carry an issue to the convention in August), she is the White Knight-ess crusading for the vote of the common voter.
  6. #46  
    As I stated a while back, I believe Hilllary's endgame is to negotiate for the VP spot. She's holding the Democratic Party hostage, and she'll let it go for a price.

    As for Florida and Michigan, I think the right solution would have been to just redo the primaries. Sure it would have cost a lot of money, but they could have easily raised it through private donations. I still don't know what prevented that from happening.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    As for Florida and Michigan, I think the right solution would have been to just redo the primaries. Sure it would have cost a lot of money, but they could have easily raised it through private donations. I still don't know what prevented that from happening.
    Republicans and principles...

    More money you spend on two primaries is less money you have to go against the Republicans.

    And if you start changing your mind now, after you CLEARLY set the rules, then what is the use of having rules? That is what makes me so mad about Hillary and her supporters....

    They don't give a rats azz about the party or this country... they only think of themselves... selfish bunch. I hope they do "GO AWAY" and vote someplace else.

    I want to see a fair fight between mccain and obama....
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  8. #48  
    I don't think money would have been a problem. I think they could have raised money from a handful of rich people who had already maxed out their campaign and party contributions.

    And while I don't know the exact rules of the Democratic Party, it seems that canceling the first Primaries and redoing them at an allowable time should have been permissible. But again, I don't know the exact rules.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I don't think money would have been a problem. I think they could have raised money from a handful of rich people who had already maxed out their campaign and party contributions.

    I don't really know enough myself to produce an argument I could form a debate... so I'll state what I heard and read....

    FL gov. Crist (sp?) said that fl was broke and would not fund another election.

    Dean said that DNC was had to focus on the Republicans and did not have enough money to give away for two elections.

    I do believe crist when he states that his state is strapped for cash... they have mad fires right now and Hurricane season is also coming up... they could use that money at better places. I don't know the cash flow in MI... but some people on the net that live there said that state is having hard times. I don't know myself though....

    DNC made the rules and I knew dean would not pay.... that would be "rewarding" FL and MI for bad behavior... the rules were broke. Plus dean knows to get obama in the white house, it is going to be very hard.... obama is going to have to run an almost 50 state election and scrap for every vote.

    I don't know the fine details myself...
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  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    ...As for Florida and Michigan, I think the right solution would have been to just redo the primaries. Sure it would have cost a lot of money, but they could have easily raised it through private donations. I still don't know what prevented that from happening.

    you're right -- that would have been a fair and euqitable solution. It was the one that Hillary's side proposed.

    Obama's team blocked it from behind the scenes.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    you're right -- that would have been a fair and euqitable solution. It was the one that Hillary's side proposed.

    Obama's team blocked it from behind the scenes.
    Where did you read that?

    edit: I've looked and could not find anything substantiating your statement.

    A lot of people posting stuff about Hunter who denied a revote because of legal obstacles... of course he is an obama supporter, so that looks fishy. But what they don't tell you is that MI tried to move the date back in Dec '07 and they failed (hunter had very little to do with that... nothing to gain at that time).... Facts can be tricky things sometimes.

    I did not know fl alone was estimated to cost as high as 25 million for a revote.... no wonder no one wants to pay.

    Anyway, I'll await the info on where to find that obama blocked the revote... all I've heard him say is that he would "play by the rules set by the DNC."
    Last edited by theog; 05/29/2008 at 05:38 AM.
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  12. #52  
    Obama's statement of playing ty the rules...means that he wins; the other way places a question mark up front.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Where did you read that?

    edit: I've looked and could not find anything substantiating your statement.

    A lot of people posting stuff about Hunter who denied a revote because of legal obstacles... of course he is an obama supporter, so that looks fishy. But what they don't tell you is that MI tried to move the date back in Dec '07 and they failed (hunter had very little to do with that... nothing to gain at that time).... Facts can be tricky things sometimes.

    I did not know fl alone was estimated to cost as high as 25 million for a revote.... no wonder no one wants to pay.

    Anyway, I'll await the info on where to find that obama blocked the revote... all I've heard him say is that he would "play by the rules set by the DNC."
    can't for now -- VERY busy (coup planning is very rigorous...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    can't for now -- VERY busy (coup planning is very rigorous...)
    Interesting enough, now I just read that Hillary was the one that blocked the votes to keep fl and mi out... hmm... this is getting sticky.
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    you're right -- that would have been a fair and euqitable solution. It was the one that Hillary's side proposed.

    Obama's team blocked it from behind the scenes.
    I fail to see how that would be "fair" considering the fact that Mich and FL broke the party rules even after being warned, and moved their primaries. Other states planned to do so as well and were warned by the party and followed the rules.

    So no, not "fair".
  16. #56  
    The votes from the primaries in Michigan and Florida were disqualified the first time because they were held too early. So if they hold primaries again, within the rules, would there be any reason to disqualify those votes?
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    The votes from the primaries in Michigan and Florida were disqualified the first time because they were held too early. So if they hold primaries again, within the rules, would there be any reason to disqualify those votes?
    Nothing would disqualify those votes.

    Problem, as already discussed, is that their will NOT be a second vote. No one wants to pay for it.

    It would cost from 10 to 25 million to redo the vote in Fl alone. Who pays? Plus, as already discussed, what about the other dems, now they are cheated.

    Dunno, but it sounds like you are asking the same question, but in different ways.

    Plus, if they are no penalties, then why would states even bother to listen to the dnc anyway. If there are no repercussions.... why don't 30% of the states hold their elections on 2 Jan CY? The rest can hold them on 20 Jan CY. Whatever....
    Last edited by theog; 05/30/2008 at 09:47 PM.
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  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    The votes from the primaries in Michigan and Florida were disqualified the first time because they were held too early. So if they hold primaries again, within the rules, would there be any reason to disqualify those votes?
    You don't say "no" that's against the rules and if you do so your delegates will not be seated then turn around and pay for a new election then seat their delegates after they ignore the party and do so anyway. That's a lack of Party structure and leadership that cannot be allowed.
  19. #59  
    FWIW, several wealthy liberal democrats -- George Soros amongst them -- offered to pay the cost of redoing Michigan's (and I think Florida's) primary.

    Obama's side sabotaged this plan because they saw ANY vote as a wild card that could only disadvantage their candidate and potentially help Hillary.

    They worked behind the scenes through their local supporters to block this deal. (they offered many high sounding arguements to justify their opposition -- but it was at root, just raw power politics.

    If all you swooning schoolgirls would for a moment take those bar goggles from your eyes, perhaps you'd be able to understand the world with some objectivity.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    If all you swooning schoolgirls would for a moment take those bar goggles from your eyes, perhaps you'd be able to understand the world with some objectivity.

    We would, if you would provide some links....

    Guess this hillary thing is really getting to you. She will be okay...



    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    FWIW, several wealthy liberal democrats -- George Soros amongst them -- offered to pay the cost of redoing Michigan's (and I think Florida's) primary.
    I'd just like to know where in the hell you are getting your information.

    I normally enjoy your posts since you are in the middle, but always "fair." Lately, your posts are garbage. Sorry....

    This is what I found on Soros:

    Top Hillary supporter and Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell privately appealed to billionaire George Soros for cash to help fund a new primary in Michigan -- a request that Soros is declining, a source familiar with their conversation tells Election Central.

    A Soros spokesperson confirmed the account.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...d_n_92178.html
    Last edited by theog; 05/30/2008 at 11:52 PM.
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