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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    MaCain will win... just looking at the reality of situation.
    Replace your "MaCain" with "Hillary" and take it back a year....

    That is exactly what Hillary fans were saying.

    The reality is I don't think anyone knows what is going to happen... we have never been "here" before. No data to suggest that obama can put some states in play as he suggests or if he will carry all the traditional states that dems carry.

    You look at all these polls (which don't mean much) and they bounce back and forth between obama winning, "macain" winning, hillary winning (lol), and so on.

    I'd not count obama out so easily.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    MaCain will win in November.
    I'll take that bet and give you 10:1 odds.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll take that bet and give you 10:1 odds.
    The spin machine is ramping up!

    GOP strategists mull McCain ‘blowout’

    It sounds crazy at first. Amid dire reports about the toxic political environment for Republican candidates and the challenges facing John McCain, many top GOP strategists believe he can defeat Barack Obama — and by a margin exceeding President Bush’s Electoral College victory in 2004.

    But the contours of the electoral map, combined with McCain’s unique strengths and the nature of Obama’s possible vulnerabilities, have led to a cautious and muted optimism that McCain could actually surpass Bush’s 35-electoral-vote victory in 2004. Though they expect he would finish far closer to Obama in the popular vote, the thinking is that he could win by as many 50 electoral votes.
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10585.html
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  4. #24  
    The punch on Obama's voting record (lack of), refusing to take stands in the legislature, his past relationships, his changing positions on a daily basis, his refusal to show the standard patriotism we expect of our leaders, those are things that hurt him with middle America.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The punch on Obama's voting record (lack of), refusing to take stands in the legislature, his past relationships, his changing positions on a daily basis, his refusal to show the standard patriotism we expect of our leaders, those are things that hurt him with middle America.

    Shame with all those issues, he is still giving your candidate, McCain, Fits.

    Or are you still voting for Barr?

    voting record = true

    refusing to take stands on legislature = same as above (you are repeating)

    past relationships = mccain's past relationships make obama look like a saint

    changing positions = no.... not like your candidate mccain. Mccain flips positions in the same town hall meeting.

    Patriotism = no truer patriot than obama. Obama is out to spread love and help his fellow man, instead of those who spread hate and look to increase racial tensions in America.

    Hurt in Middle America = can't be seen yet....

    BTW, how is mccain "really" doing? You don't talk about him much. I'm not sure if mccain talks about you republicans when he makes "small talk" with his boyfriend, Lieberman.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    left a word out in the above post. "The democratic party is not a democracy."
    The United States isn't even a democracy.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The punch on Obama's voting record (lack of), refusing to take stands in the legislature, his past relationships, his changing positions on a daily basis, his refusal to show the standard patriotism we expect of our leaders, those are things that hurt him with middle America.


    Wow! Are you on the GOP payroll or you just do this for free?
  8. #28  
    Well, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're drinking and posting tonight.
    Visor-->Visor Phone-->Treo 180-->Treo 270-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700P-->Treo 755P-->Centro-->Pre+-->Pre 2
  9. #29  
    I am just doing it for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post


    Wow! Are you on the GOP payroll or you just do this for free?
  10. #30  
    Theog, I went Googling for McCain's past relationships, seeing if I could make Obama look like a saint - I need help finding what you are speaking of. I did not find any place where McCain associated with known terrorists and murders and I did look long and hard. Also, which candidate is spreading racial tensions in America? Which candidate had a minister at the church he attended that preached hatred and damned America. A candidate with over 20 years of association with people like Mr. Wright, Mr. Billy Ayers, Ms. Bernadine Dohrn (there are others) is going to make everyone love each other?

    Did I say I was going to vote for Barr? I do not see anywhere in on this site suggesting such a statement.

    McCain is as ideal a candidate for president as is Obama and Clinton. Have you considered voting for Barr?

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Shame with all those issues, he is still giving your candidate, McCain, Fits.

    Or are you still voting for Barr?

    voting record = true

    refusing to take stands on legislature = same as above (you are repeating)

    past relationships = mccain's past relationships make obama look like a saint

    changing positions = no.... not like your candidate mccain. Mccain flips positions in the same town hall meeting.

    Patriotism = no truer patriot than obama. Obama is out to spread love and help his fellow man, instead of those who spread hate and look to increase racial tensions in America.

    Hurt in Middle America = can't be seen yet....

    BTW, how is mccain "really" doing? You don't talk about him much. I'm not sure if mccain talks about you republicans when he makes "small talk" with his boyfriend, Lieberman.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The United States isn't even a democracy.
    Of course, the United States is a democracy. It is a representative democracy. It's form of government is a federal republic, but it is certainly also a democracy. Please read commonly accepted definitions of 'democracy' below.

    from Merriam and Webster Dictionary:

    de·moc·ra·cy

    1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections


    see also http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...em/whatdm2.htm for the government line on representative democracy.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytee View Post
    Of course, the United States is a democracy.
    No, it's a representative republic. Calling it a democracy is disingenuous and only valuable as a form of propaganda. Does the popular vote aggregate of all citizens of the US mean _anything_ in governing the US?
    It is a representative democracy. It's form of government is a federal republic, but it is certainly also a democracy. Please read commonly accepted definitions of 'democracy' below.
    We can cite dueling definitions all day long, but it serves none of us any good to spread misinformation simply because it is 'commonly accepted'. Argumentum ad populum is deservedly considered a logical fallacy for a reason.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo View Post
    Well, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're drinking and posting tonight.
    Let it go. That was to the OP not you.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No, it's a representative republic. Calling it a democracy is disingenuous and only valuable as a form of propaganda. Does the popular vote aggregate of all citizens of the US mean _anything_ in governing the US?
    While I do not deny that the United States is a federal republic, to say that it is not a democracy is disingenuous. Perhaps we should agree that it is a federal republic governed by means of representative democracy... or not ;-)

    I suspect you are confusing "direct democracy" and "representative democracy". (Representative) democracy is an effective form of government in which the citizenry "have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives" (Oxford dictionary this time). You are assuming that only "direct democracy" can be termed "democracy", a simplification of the term typically used to further specific agendas.

    The "popular vote aggregate of all the citizens of the US" would represent direct democracy. As mentioned in one of my references, this is untenable in large groups. Some towns and cities in New England still have town meetings which function as true direct democracy, but anything organization over a few thousand members starts having great difficulties operating as a direct democracy and typically will employ a form of representative democracy.

    We can cite dueling definitions all day long, but it serves none of us any good to spread misinformation simply because it is 'commonly accepted'. Argumentum ad populum is deservedly considered a logical fallacy for a reason.
    Merriam and Webster, Oxford, etc. are hardly sources of misinformation. Nor is the use of major dictionaries to establish proper definitions of words an appeal to 'argumentum ad populum'. On the contrary, using well established lexical authorities to back the definitions of linguistic terms seems both logical and reasonable.
    Last edited by jaytee; 05/27/2008 at 04:29 PM.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Let it go. That was to the OP not you.
    j/k That was my attempt at adding a little cross posted humor to the thread.

    It looks like someone is seriously sleepless in seattle. Have a good one!
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytee View Post
    While I do not deny that the United States is a federal republic, to say that it is not a democracy is disingenuous.
    So, you're claiming that the founders were disingenuous? While they did claim that a government should exist solely at the consent of the governed, they designed a system to try to avoid a mobocracy, where the whim of the majority or even their representatives could harm inalienable rights which they believed to exist.
    Perhaps we should agree that it is a federal republic governed by means of representative democracy... or not ;-)
    Are those representatives bound to exercise the will of the people, or vote their conscience based on what they think is best? Were the former the case, your argument might be a bit stronger.
    I suspect you are confusing "direct democracy" and "representative democracy".
    I suspect that I'm not. I think representative democracy is not appropriate to describe the system of government of the United States. The popular usage was crafted to distinguish the US from the 'godless communist dictators'.
    (Representative) democracy is an effective form of government in which the citizenry "have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives" (Oxford dictionary this time). You are assuming that only "direct democracy" can be termed "democracy", a simplification of the term typically used to further specific agendas.
    What agenda do you suppose I'm furthering? I'm not assuming any such thing. I am stating that the usage of the term democracy is not accurate to describe the system of government under which the United States operates since the will of the people is not supposed to directly enter into any government business.
    The "popular vote aggregate of all the citizens of the US" would represent direct democracy. As mentioned in one of my references, this is untenable in large groups.
    Out of curiosity, which Federalist Paper was that discussed in?
    Some towns and cities in New England still have town meetings which function as true direct democracy, but anything organization over a few thousand members starts having great difficulties operating as a direct democracy and typically will employ a form of representative democracy.
    Would not a democracy allow the people or their representatives take whatever action they deemed to be the will of the population? Can such an event occur within any of the United States, or are there limits placed on what the people or their representatives can choose to do? This would seem to undermine the argument that we are a democracy.
    Merriam and Webster, Oxford, etc. are hardly sources of misinformation.
    The application of such can certainly be.
    Nor is the use of major dictionaries to establish proper definitions of words an appeal to 'argumentum ad populum'.
    Dictionaries do not establish anything other than the 'commonly accepted' definitions of words in 'popular' usage. Using dictionary definitions to 'prove' a point is the definition of argumentum ad populum (an appeal to the people). It also treads upon argumentum ad verecundiam. If you want to take that route, you'd be better off pointing to which debates at the Constitutional Convention or which Federalist Paper supports your argument.
    On the contrary, using well established lexical authorities to back the definitions of linguistic terms seems both logical and reasonable.
    Logic is but a form. If one's first principles are flawed or not in agreement, logical conclusions derived from them are fallacious.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #37  
    Let's put it this way: Picture Obama and Hillary to instead be two siblings who are playing a board game. They set the rules beforehand, and both agree to them without any complaints... then as one begins to lose, she *****es and moans that the rules are unfair and tries to change them afterwards. I know if that happened in my family, there's no way changing the rules would be allowed (my brother and I would've beat each other if it was even attempted). But somehow, she seems to be getting away with convincing the American people that this is okay. I don't care if the rules are fair or not, but if you agree to them beforehand, you can't change them afterwards. Hillary had PLENTY of opportunity beforehand to say what she's been saying now. In fact, you could argue since she was the favorite early in the election that she had MORE pull for this than anyone else. Instead, she agreed with the Democratic party and only changed her tune when it became apparent her time was up.

    Hillary won't be content until she drags the whole party down with her, at this point. (And no, I'm not entirely sure about Obama either, but this shouldn't be stood for.)
  18. #38  
    With June approaching, guess we better get ready for the shock of hillary dropping out. I'm sure her supporters will not post on this forum for a while.

    I wonder if Dieter should send out counselors to the forum members?

    Dem lawyers: Fla., Mich. can't be fully restored

    The analysis said there are two options to include half the delegations — either allow half the number of delegates from each state into the convention or allow the full delegations to attend, but give them each half a vote. "The rule does not actually specify whether the reduction is to be accomplished on the basis of delegate positions or delegate votes," the analysis said, giving committee members some justification for sending the entire delegations with half-votes as some leaders in the states want.

    The analysis also underscores a prickly problem: If the Rules and Bylaws Committee decides to restore any of the states' delegates, there is not a simple way to divide them between Clinton and Barack Obama.

    That's especially true in Michigan, where Obama had his name pulled from the ballot. He didn't have the option of removing his name in Florida, but all the candidates signed a pledge not to campaign in either state.

    Clinton won the majority of the vote in Florida and Michigan and has been arguing that the delegates should be fully restored according to the results of the January primaries. But even if they were, it would not be enough for her to overtake Obama's delegate lead.

    As it becomes clear that Obama likely will win the nomination, he has been working to win over voters in the two states with visits in recent days. He plans to return to Michigan on Monday.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/...imary_scramble
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  19. #39  
    You know, I watched an interesting video from last year, from Dan Rather Presents, where he goes into depth on the new touchscreen voting systems, and how they were unreliable, (and how the paper ballots used in 2000 were lower quality, and workers from that company believe it was to push for the electronic systems that nobody was buying prior)... regardless, whether the paper ballot part is true or not, the main point I want to make is that the whole thing to push the primaries up in Florida was buried on the same bill that was to get rid of the defective touchscreen voting systems, which was pushed for by a Republican governor, who I have a feeling was pretty sure of the consequences of moving the date forward.
    Last edited by jhoff80; 05/28/2008 at 04:36 PM.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    With June approaching, guess we better get ready for the shock of hillary dropping out. I'm sure her supporters will not post on this forum for a while.
    I still say the two deciding factors for Hillary dropping out in June or holding until the convention is how the scale weighs in with the Super Delegates with her behind closed doors pledges and if she can drag the fight for the Fla and Mich state delegate issue all the way to the convention. I think she sees these two issues as avenues to stay in.

    But if her argument that 100% of the delegates need to be seated is shot down this Saturday when the decision is made to seat half of them and the case is closed then that is strike one.

    Then if even by her version of basic addition does not add up to even a chance with the Super Delegates...that is strike two, the biggest and final blow.

    If these two stay in her favor of her perception of the argument, she will stay. Only a few weeks to know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I wonder if Dieter should send out counselors to the forum members?

    Dem lawyers: Fla., Mich. can't be fully restored

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/...imary_scramble
    This Saturday they are holding a special session to decide the fate of these two states delegates. The rules say that 100% of them are not to be counted......but that the DNC has the power to be forgiving enough to seat 50% of the state delegates. If they decide on that, then they must decide how to deal them out. Hillary says according to how people voted of course, because she won both states and Mich didn't even have Obama on the ballot. Other say divide them up evenly among all active campaigns at the time. If no decision can be reached by Sunday evening then this issue will be the opening issue at the Dem convention in August. So it all boils down to this next weekend.....
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