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  1. #21  
    Leadership is a major factor. So the question is, what leadership qualities do the 2 democrats have? Neither has much of a track record. Also, Obama and his handling of Wright comes across as spineless.

    Ben
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Also, Obama and his handling of Wright comes across as spineless.

    Ben

    Actually the way obama handled the wright matter was on point. But of course, you want to bring that up in every thread you can to throw it off.

    I know what your problem is (with obama), but what is the point?

    It gets to a point people can't have a decent convo without your pointless remarks showing up....
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    As I mentioned in a post in another thread, I think it's a major factor for most people, though not everyone would admit it. And it's the determining factor for a lot of people choosing between Obama and Hillary.
    I think that is a major factor starting out. Problem is if you REALLY applied leadership/character/trust/competence I'm sure none of these three candidates would cut the mustard. But going head to head, I think obama would rise to the top simply because he has not been around long enough to leave a paper trail like the others.

    And I'm still surprised on forums at how many people out of the blue claim that they are not racists or out of the blue claim that if you say anything about obama are labeled racist, then proceed to attack his character, leadership, trust and competence every chance they get. It is one of the oddest things I've seen over the past month. Like it was on cue or something.

    They fail to mention anything of any substance. If you applied the same to hillary or mccain you could run pages of proven and unproven acts that directly throw their leadership, character, trust, and competence into the sewer. Hell, with mccain you could look no further than this ethics violations. Or how he and his wife "hooked up." We all know about hillary.. lol... but if you wanted to do a guilty by association, she tops it!

    It is amazing....

    I don't think it matters much.... the people with obvious issues will be the loudest and the most negative, contributing little.

    Early on (when someone first learn about a candidate) leadership, character, trust, and competence will be a factor, but then people seem to get "married" to a candidate and that is "their" candidate. The candidate could shoot five people on live TV and still get their vote. Heck, look at Bill Clinton... we joke about it, but it is not really funny. People would still vote him into office.

    Then again, I think lot more people vote party than we like to admit. They don't give a rats az about candidates, issues, or anything else. There are a lot of sheeple out there. Why do I say that? When I hear people talk about candidates, I ask them simple questions... people don't know the issues... they tend to fall back on easy stuff, like going negative on the other candidate or spitting out media talking points.
    Last edited by theog; 05/01/2008 at 04:51 AM.
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  4. #24  
    1. Entitlement reform
    2. Universal healthcare
    3. Peace in the Middle East
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
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  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    They fail to mention anything of any substance. If you applied the same to hillary or mccain you could run pages of proven and unproven acts that directly throw their leadership, character, trust, and competence into the sewer. Hell, with mccain you could look no further than this ethics violations. Or how he and his wife "hooked up." We all know about hillary.. lol... but if you wanted to do a guilty by association, she tops it!
    I think that's the key though, the majority of us already KNOW this about them. What bothers me are the multitude of people that act like Barack is somehow any different. Unfortunately, it creates an unlevel playing ground with people who really cannot articulate their positions (but can articulate their complaints).

    Christians took a similar position when it came to GWB (particularly before his first term) and somehow disregarded many a issue purely on the basis that he was an evangelical Christian.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I think that is a major factor starting out. Problem is if you REALLY applied leadership/character/trust/competence I'm sure none of these three candidates would cut the mustard. But going head to head, I think obama would rise to the top simply because he has not been around long enough to leave a paper trail like the others.
    For me, personally, I feel that both Obama and McCain are fundamentally good, competent people. They both pass the test.

    But this is all a very subjective thing, and everyone will view this differently.


    On my other main criterion of national security/foreign relations, I trust in McCain more. Some of his views concern me, such as his belligerence to Iran and Russia, and his desire for a League of Democracies. I think we should take a strong position against Iran, but I hope he doesn't take us to war. And I think that forging stronger ties with the other democracies is fundamentally a good idea, but I hope he doesn't use it to polarize the world again.

    But Obama's promise to pull troops from Iraq regardless of the conditions strikes me as a decision to place winning votes over doing the right thing for the country. If he softens his position on the pullout and brings on Biden, who has a more practical view of the consequences, I might reassess my opinion.
  7. #27  
  8. #28  
    Theog, you really are on to personal attacks today. I would say that your comment is exceedingly pointless. You really do take things too personally.

    May your day be as pointless as your pointless remarks that are showing up in decent conversations. Gosh, that sounds great!

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Actually the way obama handled the wright matter was on point. But of course, you want to bring that up in every thread you can to throw it off.

    I know what your problem is (with obama), but what is the point?

    It gets to a point people can't have a decent convo without your pointless remarks showing up....
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    where did you go Shop ??

    Were you down in New Orleans keeping an eye on my stuff ??
    LOL

    I heard the black helicopters closing, and decided to submit my response as is before they confiscated my computer.

    Now, from my undisclosed location are the remaining priorities:

    2. International Food Supply

    3. Freedom of Speech/Freedom of Thought
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I think that's the key though, the majority of us already KNOW this about them. What bothers me are the multitude of people that act like Barack is somehow any different. Unfortunately, it creates an unlevel playing ground with people who really cannot articulate their positions (but can articulate their complaints).
    Obama is different. He has not been around long enough to get "caught up" in much. He even ducked issues by voting "present" and not taking a stance. As I understand it, some of those were legit "present" votes, some, I believe, were him ducking the issue.

    Unleveled playing field for who?
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    For me, personally, I feel that both Obama and McCain are fundamentally good, competent people. They both pass the test.

    But this is all a very subjective thing, and everyone will view this differently.
    McCain has some serious ethics issues (years of issues)... not to mention the situation with him and his current wife when they first started dating. Then McCain's temper and everything that stems from that. When I first started my research on McCain this year, I knew he was a decorated 'nam vet, married to a rich woman, and was the "ethics" man.

    McCain markets himself good... I'll leave it at that. Don't want to seem like I'm trolling mccain like some here troll obama.

    I could still very much vote for mccain though. He has issues but nothing the rest don't have. Even obama has an ethics issue in the form of Tony Rezko.

    Hillary? Well, we know about her. lol

    samkim, you are right though... both Obama and McCain are fundamentally good, competent people. Deep down inside, I believe that Hillary is as well... although, she has not explained her misstatements as well as obama and mccain. In some instances, like the "snipper" story, she could not explain anything....


    But Obama's promise to pull troops from Iraq regardless of the conditions strikes me as a decision to place winning votes over doing the right thing for the country. If he softens his position on the pullout and brings on Biden, who has a more practical view of the consequences, I might reassess my opinion.
    I don't think either one of these candidates would pull troops out of Iraq totally.

    I think the problem with not setting up a deadline is the Iraq gov't will milk this as long as possible. Sometimes the best thing you can do is divorce yourself from a situation with the quickness. We have accomplished what we needed to accomplish.

    Although, we will need to send money over for them to fix the country.

    But to think that I presence there will bring peace to the country is not something I believe is true. If anything our presence is a distraction. Possibilities of things going wrong once we leave? Yes.

    My thought is we have been there long enough... time to go.
    Last edited by theog; 05/01/2008 at 03:04 PM.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Obama is different. He has not been around long enough to get "caught up" in much. He even ducked issues by voting "present" and not taking a stance. As I understand it, some of those were legit "present" votes, some, I believe, were him ducking the issue...

    The advantage of politicians like Obama, like Hart, like Dean, like McGovern -- is that when they first emerge into the public eye they are unknown. They are essentially Rorschach inkblots that people project their ideal human qualities, onto.

    Having had a VERY brief national career, and having avoided taking many positions, Obama is a kind of tabula rasa -- one that his many fans have filled with saintly virtue -- while his enemies are beginning to supplementally paint as satan's messenger.

    Most everyone here pays far more attention to the news and current events than most average people. Most here can relatively accurately say something good or bad about all these candidates and what policies they would support.

    That is NOT most people.

    Most people think the world is 5000 years old, that the civil war happened in 1492, and that BARYE is just an ordinary simian.

    They get their knowledge from headlines on the gossip mags at the supermarket checkout, from the late night comedy monologues, from listening to Rush in the car, and from gossip repeated by friends at the beauty parlor.

    What they think is not based on facts, its based on impresssions.

    And once those impressions are formed, they harden like a hand print in cement. And it can take a jackhammer to change them.

    Gore tied junior largely because people's impression of him was that he was a snooty, pointy headed, liberal elitist.

    He lost gun owners in W Va. and Tennessee because of his honest and honorable support of gun laws. The NRA and the GOP convinced gun owners that Gore would pry their dead fingers from round their well oiled triggers.

    That no such thing would ever have happened was not something that could be argued to those people. Their minds were formed -- and that was it.

    The last few weeks have been like that for Obama. It will be real hard to get those folks to see him again with an open mind.
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/01/2008 at 09:07 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The advantage of politicians like Obama, like Hart, like Dean, like McGovern -- is that when they first emerge into the public eye they are unknown. They are essentially Rorschach inkblots that people project their ideal human qualities, onto.

    Having had a VERY brief national career, and having avoided taking many positions, Obama is a kind of tabula rasa -- one that his many fans have filled with saintly virtue -- while his enemies are beginning to supplementally paint as satan's messenger. [...]
    To an extent, you're sounding like Limbaugh here.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    To an extent, you're sounding like Limbaugh here.
    I've never really heard him -- except for the hateful, ignorant (yet strangely persuasive) excerpts that Keith Doberman sometimes plays...maybe BARYE can aspire to be a ditto head ???
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    McCain has some serious ethics issues (years of issues)... not to mention the situation with him and his current wife when they first started dating. Then McCain's temper and everything that stems from that. When I first started my research on McCain this year, I knew he was a decorated 'nam vet, married to a rich woman, and was the "ethics" man.

    McCain markets himself good... I'll leave it at that. Don't want to seem like I'm trolling mccain like some here troll obama.

    I could still very much vote for mccain though. He has issues but nothing the rest don't have. Even obama has an ethics issue in the form of Tony Rezko.
    I have no problem with your criticizing McCain, as long as it's factual and level-headed.

    I have only a vague recollection of the Keating Five scandal. I thought he came out relatively unscathed in the end, though I could be very wrong. And I'm sure I'll be well educated on the subject in the coming months.

    I also don't know a lot about Rezko, but what little I've heard doesn't bother me.

    But both seem like legitimate campaign issues.


    I don't think either one of these candidates would pull troops out of Iraq totally.

    I think the problem with not setting up a deadline is the Iraq gov't will milk this as long as possible. Sometimes the best thing you can do is divorce yourself from a situation with the quickness. We have accomplished what we needed to accomplish.

    Although, we will need to send money over for them to fix the country.

    But to think that I presence there will bring peace to the country is not something I believe is true. If anything our presence is a distraction. Possibilities of things going wrong once we leave? Yes.

    My thought is we have been there long enough... time to go.
    Obama has pledged to pull out all combat troops within 16 months, leaving a small number to protect the embassy.

    The US troops are maintaining stability while they train Iraqi security forces. The longer we stay, the larger, stronger, and more capable the Iraqi army will be. It's possible that Iraq will be secure enough in a year for us to begin pulling out; if so, great. Then this becomes less of an issue. If it'll take more time before the Iraqis are able to operate independently, then I think we should give them the time they need. They'll get there eventually.
  16. #36  
    1. Electing a president that will appoint judges that have at least the vaguest understanding of the Constitutional role of government.

    2. Whipping the bejeez out of the Jihad.

    3. Getting control of illegal immigation.

    McCain sucks the least.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    LOL

    I heard the black helicopters closing, and decided to submit my response as is before they confiscated my computer...
    you let them get your COMPUTER !!??!!??!!??

    You encrypted the drive with PGP, right ??

    (BTW, neither me nor my crack staff of ethernet detectives knows what that means exactly -- but its what one of my super secret sleeper agents whose identity I can't reveal, advised me to ask you (shhhh --- his initials are t-o-b-y)
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/01/2008 at 09:06 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #38  
    Another issue - consistency. I remember something like Obama stating he would meet with the leader of Iran, North Korea, et cetera if he were elected president. He then says very recently that he would boycott the Olympics in China due to the political situation in China. Now this is amazing - he meets with known terrorists who do not respect human rights and yet refuses to extend the same to China, a country that does not respect human rights. Gosh, does this mean?

    Ben
  19. #39  
    I usually lurk, but what the hell I am feeling chatty.

    My top 3:

    -The economy
    -Universal health care/affordable health care
    -Same-sex marriage

    It's reasonable to assume that 2/3 of that will be addressed, probably in some acceptable measure or another, by whoever gets elected. Maybe McCain less so for my views on some things than others, but mostly all three agree there's issues all around. And if McCain picks a fiscal conservative/social moderate as his VP then we'll definitely get somewhere on the first two.

    As for the third...no one's touching that with a ten foot pole this election. While it sucks, I would rather see it be ignored than turned into something to be vilified, like the current administration. No news is good news sometimes, sucky as that is.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Another issue - consistency. I remember something like Obama stating he would meet with the leader of Iran, North Korea, et cetera if he were elected president. He then says very recently that he would boycott the Olympics in China due to the political situation in China. Now this is amazing - he meets with known terrorists who do not respect human rights and yet refuses to extend the same to China, a country that does not respect human rights. Gosh, does this mean?

    Ben
    It means that, unlike some people, obama is smart... he can separate issues and act accordingly.

    Unfortunately, this is another one of your consistent misstatements about obama. At least you are consistent with your posts against obama... and we all know why.
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