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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by john_v View Post
    I must be showing my youth and naivete . When I heard this mentioned on the morning news, I thought they were refering TO THIS. I thought maybe I had a bad gadget in my signature.

    Thanks to google, I now realize they weren't

    Ok, back to topic
    FWIW, the original name of "The Weathermen" came out of a line in a Dylan song: "... don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowin'..."

    (changed to The Weather Underground because "Weathermen" was deemed too sexist).

    Though I know much less about them than I'd like, when I was younger I was fascinated by their stories, and intriqued with them as individuals.

    Had I been around then, and if I'd been invited, I may well have joined.

    Vietnam was then seen as such an outrage, and the context of the time was both so helpless and nihilistic -- that many talented, idealistic, and intelligent people thought that violence against property was a proper expression of dissent -- and a needed precursor to anarchy and revolution.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/18/2008 at 12:19 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2.    #22  
    I am always amazed at these conversations, where they lead to. A simple question was asked, do words count? When we speak, do our words count? Why is there a drive for someone to explain what Obama says,why not Obama explain what he has to say. And the reason is this: as I mentioned, he reads a teleprompter well, but when it comes to LIVE, he shows his inability to think on the fly. If he is constantly slipping at this stage, what makes one think he will perform well when the going gets tough.

    Nothing more and nothing less was meant by this ... does his words count, is he responsible for what he says, must someone else always explain his remarks.

    Ben
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Best person to explain what he meant is the person himself.
    Unless, of course, that person hires a PRPRPR $team$... $because$ $then$ $it$'$s$ $anyone$'$s$ $guess$.
    Who's flying this thing?
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I am always amazed at these conversations, where they lead to. A simple question was asked, do words count? When we speak, do our words count? Why is there a drive for someone to explain what Obama says,why not Obama explain what he has to say. And the reason is this: as I mentioned, he reads a teleprompter well, but when it comes to LIVE, he shows his inability to think on the fly. If he is constantly slipping at this stage, what makes one think he will perform well when the going gets tough.

    Nothing more and nothing less was meant by this ... does his words count, is he responsible for what he says, must someone else always explain his remarks.

    Ben
    You know... public responsibility is a funny thing. I'll admit I don't pay attention to the new often enough, but I have had the impression that over the past couple of years I've heard a lot of politicians claim that they will "take responsibility" for some incident that happened. It seems to be the 'in vogue' thing to do. The other 'in vogue' thing to do seems to be for a politician to resign when they screw up. Indeed, that makes sense sometimes, but it tends to seem like that's a way to shirk responsibility to me.

    He should take the time to explain at least some of his own remarks... I mean, how can we be sure that he can make himself understood?
    Who's flying this thing?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I am always amazed at these conversations, where they lead to. A simple question was asked, do words count? When we speak, do our words count?
    I already answered this earlier in the thread... of course words count, but when in multiple debates, speeches and "small talks" over the course of a week, people make mistakes. Of course, you will only hear when they make the mistakes, but not hear about the dozen or more other engagements they had during that same week.

    Why is there a drive for someone to explain what Obama says,why not Obama explain what he has to say.
    He already has.

    What exactly do you want him to explain that he has not... maybe explaining that will help others understand your point.

    And the reason is this: as I mentioned, he reads a teleprompter well, but when it comes to LIVE, he shows his inability to think on the fly. If he is constantly slipping at this stage, what makes one think he will perform well when the going gets tough.
    Uh, not true. He is better than any of the three candidates when he goes "live." Compare him with mccain, and clinton.... no contest going live.


    Nothing more and nothing less was meant by this ... does his words count, is he responsible for what he says, must someone else always explain his remarks.
    You keep repeating the same thing like you want it to stick... like that will make it true. Obama has some issues, but going live or going without a teleprompter is the least of his worries.
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  6.    #26  
    Theog, Obama has not answered the questions in detail. Listen closely and you will see what many see - he side steps the answer. I agree they all make mistakes, but when it comes to explaining the mistakes, it is rarely Obama stepping up to the plate until the last minute - it is normally someone else. The same occurs to a much lesser degree with the others.

    Ben
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I already answered this earlier in the thread... of course words count, but when in multiple debates, speeches and "small talks" over the course of a week, people make mistakes. Of course, you will only hear when they make the mistakes, but not hear about the dozen or more other engagements they had during that same week.

    ...

    its just breathtaking how facile it is for all of you to explain away his gaffes -- and how microscopic you all were to Hilllary.

    I am disappointed -- genuinely.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8.    #28  
    I agree, mistakes are made. However, this man when he makes a mistake, makes them big and most of the time he does not own up to them unless pressured to do so. Barye does have a point, Obama gets off light and Hillary is slammed.

    What really surprised me though was the debates, he was asked questions that should have been asked long, long ago and what did we hear? stutters and then along came the rest of main stream media saying that the questions were not the right ones to ask.

    The statement that we all make mistakes still does not answer the question asked in the beginning - why do many feel they are responsible for answering Obama's statements, stumbles and more often than not, statements that offend bunches and bunches of people. If this an is the "uniter" of the country, then he is just plain incompetent.

    Ben
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    its just breathtaking how facile it is for all of you to explain away his gaffes -- and how microscopic you all were to Hilllary.

    I am disappointed -- genuinely.
    Saying something wrong or rather saying something in a way that is taken the wrong way is different than creating not one but TWO stories that were simply NOT TRUE.

    Sorry, there is a difference... let it go....
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  10.    #30  
    Well, Obama is seriously at fault there. He repeatedly stated he was unaware of the "sermons" given by the Reverend Hate. He repeatedly stated he never heard the Reverend Hate say what was claimed to have said. To think that there was even the possibility he was unaware that the church sold copies of his sermons...Then when pushed hard about it, he backed up and said yes he had heard it, that he sat there, but that he did not support...

    The thing is, how can one possibly attend a church for 20 years, give to that chruch for 20 years, involve the Rev Hate in his activities for a few years, have his daughters baptized by the Rev Hate and not be aware of it? Look at his house...his statements he did not know of the activities of the dude now under investigation...this man is a man of change, to bring us together and LOOK at the people he associates with, who he claims mentored him, who he claims he greatly respects. Look how he compares the Weather dude with a senator that supports the death penalty (a legal action versus terrorist action).

    Look how hard this has been pressed and until recently, Obama ignored every bit of it. When pressed, Obama blamed the history of white people, the racism of white people - never has he ever said anything about the racism of black people, never has he ever criticized the terrorism of his associates, the racial words of his associates. Never.

    At what point do we hold this man responsible for his words, his actions? If he is our "new hope," then he has a long, long way to go before he can come anywhere to the point of uniting even a fraction of this country. His past actions, his language of today talk of blame one group, excuse the other group, blame everyone else, but keep himself clean - his excuse: he didn't know - what a sham.

    Ben
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I agree, mistakes are made. However, this man when he makes a mistake, makes them big and most of the time he does not own up to them unless pressured to do so. Barye does have a point, Obama gets off light and Hillary is slammed.
    What "big" mistakes?

    What really surprised me though was the debates, he was asked questions that should have been asked long, long ago and what did we hear? stutters and then along came the rest of main stream media saying that the questions were not the right ones to ask.
    I thought he did fairly well... of course, that is a matter of opinion.


    The statement that we all make mistakes still does not answer the question asked in the beginning - why do many feel they are responsible for answering Obama's statements, stumbles and more often than not, statements that offend bunches and bunches of people.
    Who? When? What statements?

    As already stated, I'm not sure if anyone can answer your questions... you paint with a huge brush and don't list anything specifically, outside of something already discussed in another thread.

    If this an is the "uniter" of the country, then he is just plain incompetent.

    Ben
    You can gauge competence in many ways... how you poise a question, how you run a thread.... how you "discuss an topic....

    I'm not sure if we are going to discuss an issue, argue about something, or rant about obama.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Well, Obama is seriously at fault there. He repeatedly stated he was unaware of the "sermons" given by the Reverend Hate. He repeatedly stated he never heard the Reverend Hate say what was claimed to have said. To think that there was even the possibility he was unaware that the church sold copies of his sermons...Then when pushed hard about it, he backed up and said yes he had heard it, that he sat there, but that he did not support...
    Ok, so you think obama lied. I think you made that clear several weeks ago.

    I'm not sure I believe him 100%, but I did give him a "pass" on the issue since his explanation on why he did not leave the church made sense.

    this man is a man of change, to bring us together and LOOK at the people he associates with, who he claims mentored him, who he claims he greatly respects. .
    He explained that... although, I'm not so sure you are looking at it in the correct light. You failing to understand the complexities of humans.


    Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and Pat Robertson... (hint: there are reasons why mccain does not want to turn this election "ugly.")

    .
    Look how hard this has been pressed and until recently, Obama ignored every bit of it. When pressed, Obama blamed the history of white people, the racism of white people - never has he ever said anything about the racism of black people, never has he ever criticized the terrorism of his associates, the racial words of his associates. Never.
    Yes, he has. You are either deliberately not telling the truth or you are very uninformed.


    At what point do we hold this man responsible for his words, his actions? If he is our "new hope," then he has a long, long way to go before he can come anywhere to the point of uniting even a fraction of this country. His past actions, his language of today talk of blame one group, excuse the other group, blame everyone else, but keep himself clean - his excuse: he didn't know - what a sham.

    Ben
    There are major arguments against obama, but you are not making them... or rather your points are lost in your attacks against the guy in your posts.
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and Pat Robertson... (hint: there are reasons why mccain does not want to turn this election "ugly.")
    Probably to keep Obama from looking down on them . . . considering one was born in PA, two in VA and one in LA--wouldn't want the American people know how bitter they were and turned to religion right?
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  14.    #34  
    His explanation of why he stayed with the church for 20 years while listening to the Rev Hate satisfied you? Our thoughts on religion must be totally different. I am sure that had the white candidate listened to the same sermons for the same period of time and gave the same reason, then you would not agree with it.

    Obama lying? Why does he change his story as often as Hillary - at least she owned up to her latest misremembering episode, though she did not go in to detail.

    But again, dear Theog, you are totally missing the question - why do people feel they have to come to his defense - why not let him explain?

    Ben
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Probably to keep Obama from looking down on them . . . considering one was born in PA, two in VA and one in LA--wouldn't want the American people know how bitter they were and turned to religion right?
    Right.... you know what I was getting at.

    Good reply though....
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    His explanation of why he stayed with the church for 20 years while listening to the Rev Hate satisfied you?
    For the 1000th time... he stated he had not heard those sermons. Do you think obama was in church every sunday? Every Sunday, wed, thurs (well depending on when the meet). No telling when those videos was recorded. I'm sure someone (like hillary?) has went through them looking for obama. I'm sure they did not find him.



    I am sure that had the white candidate listened to the same sermons for the same period of time and gave the same reason, then you would not agree with it.
    What a comment. So what are you really saying? Why don't you stand up and say what you "really" want to say? Don't beat around the Bush...

    That comment was (put simply) dumb and uncalled for. I don't give a rats azz what color obama is. Being the color black does not make the inner person "black." Point is: what is the difference between black and white anyway?

    You claim that anyone who says anything against obama is a labeled a racist.. yet, you pull the race card for anyone who dare defend obama against your baseless and pointless attacks. What a strategy you have going here.... Actually, it makes me sick.




    Obama lying? Why does he change his story as often as Hillary - at least she owned up to her latest misremembering episode, though she did not go in to detail.
    Please provide facts... what are you talking about? Again, you paint with a wide brush and want people to create things out of thin air.

    But again, dear Theog, you are totally missing the question - why do people feel they have to come to his defense - why not let him explain?

    Ben
    No one is missing the question... you are not asking a question of substance.

    Bottom line is that obama has answered every question poised to him... if you have not heard the answers or deliberately ignoring the truth then that is your issue. If you do not like his answer, that is your issue as well.

    Bottom line is DON'T vote for him if you think is is not telling the truth. But then, you would not vote for him anyway.

    Post #2 in this thread was correct... I'm outta here... I'll let others feed the troll.
    Last edited by theog; 04/18/2008 at 03:52 PM.
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Right.... you know what I was getting at.
    Aye; I just couldn't resist.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Point is: what is the difference between black and white anyway?
    A little melanin.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19.    #39  
    And not for the 100th time, he changed his story - you really need to keep up with him. He did change his story. I said something racist? No, no, no, that is coming from you. Have a good day, you frankly avoided telling me why Obama cannot speak for himself.

    Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    For the 1000th time... he stated he had not heard those sermons. Do you think obama was in church every sunday? Every Sunday, wed, thurs (well depending on when the meet). No telling when those videos was recorded. I'm sure someone (like hillary?) has went through them looking for obama. I'm sure they did not find him.





    What a comment. So what are you really saying? Why don't you stand up and say what you "really" want to say? Don't beat around the Bush...

    That comment was (put simply) dumb and uncalled for. I don't give a rats azz what color obama is. Being the color black does not make the inner person "black." Point is: what is the difference between black and white anyway?

    You claim that anyone who says anything against obama is a labeled a racist.. yet, you pull the race card for anyone who dare defend obama against your baseless and pointless attacks. What a strategy you have going here.... Actually, it makes me sick.






    Please provide facts... what are you talking about? Again, you paint with a wide brush and want people to create things out of thin air.



    No one is missing the question... you are not asking a question of substance.

    Bottom line is that obama has answered every question poised to him... if you have not heard the answers or deliberately ignoring the truth then that is your issue. If you do not like his answer, that is your issue as well.

    Bottom line is DON'T vote for him if you think is is not telling the truth. But then, you would not vote for him anyway.

    Post #2 in this thread was correct... I'm outta here... I'll let others feed the troll.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    A little melanin.
    You are right....

    Unfortunately the troll seems to think that if a white candidate had listened to those sermons I'd not agree with it. Of course, he fails to explain how he came up with that... more than likely because that comment makes him look like a complete imbecile.


    Let us see what the troll said:

    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger
    I am sure that had the white candidate listened to the same sermons for the same period of time and gave the same reason, then you (theog) would not agree with it.
    Then he tried to get out of it:

    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger
    I said something racist? No, no, no, that is coming from you.
    So now racism is coming from me.

    That is amazing... so I'm not only left wondering what comments obama made that people must take up for... but now I'm wondering what is "coming" from me (what racist remarks).


    All of this is really astonishing, considering this quote in his/her first post:

    anyone that questions him (obama) is called a bigot, racist, and well, each of you knows exactly what is being stated.

    Personally, I don't know what to take from all of it... well, I do, but it is not nice....
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