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  1.    #1  
    Interesting article from American Thinker:

    Obama's National Public Education Plans
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Interesting article from American Thinker:

    Obama's National Public Education Plans
    Gotta love articles from ezines like these - because they're not at all right-winged. I loved their other big hits:

    The Disgrace of Liberalism
    NBC's Equivalence Even Less Moral than Obama's
    Obama's National Public Education Plans
    Obama's Messiah Shtick
    How the Leftist Churches Set a Time Bomb for the Democrats
    The Right of Return and the Forgotten Refugees
    Cultural Affirmative Action
    The religion of eternal racism and eternal sexism
    Anger, Forgiveness, and Obama

    Seriously, you'd have been better off just raising your concerns about Obama's possible education policies than posting this stuff.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Gotta love articles from ezines like these - because they're not at all right-winged. I loved their other big hits:

    ...

    Seriously, you'd have been better off just raising your concerns about Obama's possible education policies than posting this stuff.
    I thought the article did a good job of raising concerns about Obama's possible education policies. Of course, the author(s) framed the content to suit his/her/their own purpose(s), but the links to the source documents on Obama's website should allow ample evaluation.

    So, what do you think about Obama's statements and the possible policies that would ensue?
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Gotta love articles from ezines like these - because they're not at all right-winged.

    Seriously, you'd have been better off just raising your concerns about Obama's possible education policies than posting this stuff.
    That's an interesting assessment of the article; I'll have to perpend on that for a while.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Seriously, you'd have been better off just raising your concerns about Obama's possible education policies than posting this stuff.
    Obviously this guy is a life-long republican... given his prior posts and now this post, it is clear.

    I read earlier tonight that republicans don't care for McCain and have nothing nice to say about him, so they say things about a candidate of the opposition that they fear. It was an interesting article that is certainly true.

    Given that, I'd like to see republicans stop attempting to smear other candidates and post stuff about their candidate. Oh, yea, I forgot, it was Mccain who said his site did not contain the "real" plan he had for his presidency and that things would change. lol

    What a joker...

    Guess republicans might not have a choice but to talk about other candidates.

    I keep saying that republicans are going to put obama in office... the more BS they post, the more undecided see a "hate" message...
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  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    So, what do you think about Obama's statements and the possible policies that would ensue?
    Considering what is happening across america (this week California), we need some type of gov't intervention to help.

    In another article I was reading last night, a CEO was talking about bring over foreign workers or moving a plant from overseas. The locations that he looked to build, he checked the local schools and found out they were graduating around 50% of their students. That is incredible.

    He stated something like, if he had a product that failed 50% of the time he would scrap it and start over. That is were we are at.

    If obama's plan can get us on the right track, fine. Bush had a pretty good plan, but it was sorely underfunded. And there are other complaints, but no need to get off topic. Even with the complaints anyway, it was a plan that could have worked.

    I mean, in #2 the American Thinker says, "Quadruple funding and improve quality; $250 million dedicated funds to create or expand regional training centers" like this is a bad thing... do they know how much we spend in Iraq?

    If you don't invest in your future you fail to invest. Our schools are in dire straights...

    Although, you could also argue that people don't spend enough time teaching their kids... we can have that discussion as well.
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  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog
    Obviously this guy is a life-long republican... given his prior posts and now this post, it is clear.


    Presuming you speak of me, what is obvious is that you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. In my younger days? Sure, I aimlessly voted Republican—often without really considering the issues.

    Now that I’m a bit older, things have change. While I’m not quite on board with typical Democrat epilogues and dogma, neither am I always on board with those emanating from Republicans. More to the point, I don’t engage in mere partisan politics—something I can see some here are quite familiar with.

    NOTE: I pointed to what I found to be an interesting article, not an interesting ezine(though I do enjoy it from time to time). As another poster pointed out, they did a reasonable job of raising concerns, in THAT particular article. We can presume I advocated all of their articles or we can focus on the single article—and more importantly—regarding the plan for correcting our education woes.

    That said, let’s move on to the actual issue at hand (if that is okay with everyone here). For the record, I hope everyone has read the reading material provided by myself AND the American Thinker (those pesky links within the article).

    I mean, in #2 the American Thinker says, "Quadruple funding and improve quality; $250 million dedicated funds to create or expand regional training centers" like this is a bad thing... do they know how much we spend in Iraq?


    Economist (and Libertarian—sometimes Conservative)Walter Williams points out the following:

    “Another serious education problem is the fact that many teachers have little or no training in the subjects they teach. According to the U.S. Department of Education, 36 percent of public school teachers -- 972,000 teachers out of 2.7 million nationwide - didn't major or minor in the core subjects they teach. In other words, there are teachers teaching math and science who might not have taken a single class in those subjects.”

    Of course, that’s from 2001; maybe something a bit more recent?

    How do we get out of this mess of abysmal student performance? Presidential hopeful Barack Obama has proposed an $18 billion increase in federal education programs. That's the typical knee-jerk response -- more money. Let's delve a bit, asking whether higher educational expenditures explain why secondary school students in 32 industrialized countries are better at math and science than ours. In 2004, the U.S. spent about $9,938 per secondary school student. More money might explain why Swiss and Norwegian students do better than ours because they, respectively, spent $12,176 and $11,109 per student. But what about Finland ($7,441) and South Korea ($6,761), which scored first and second in math literacy? What about the Slovak Republic ($2,744) and Hungary ($3,692), as well as other nations whose education expenditures are a fraction of ours and whose students have greater math and science literacy than ours?
    American education will never be improved until we address one of the problems seen as too delicate to discuss. That problem is the overall quality of people teaching our children. Students who have chosen education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major. Students who have graduated with an education degree earn lower scores than any other major on graduate school admissions tests such as the GRE, MCAT or LSAT. Schools of education, either graduate or undergraduate, represent the academic slums of most any university. As such, they are home to the least able students and professors with the lowest academic respect. Were we serious about efforts to improve public education, one of the first things we would do is eliminate schools of education.


    NOW, maybe someone might answer two questions:

    1 – What evidence is there to show that more money is the answer (keep in mind, showing how little we spent is not evidence)?

    2 – How does the plan even remotely support the original concept that formed this country?

    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    NOW, maybe someone might answer two questions:

    1 – What evidence is there to show that more money is the answer (keep in mind, showing how little we spent is not evidence)?

    2 – How does the plan even remotely support the original concept that formed this country?

    [/SIZE]
    I'll have to admit, I read two letters of your post, then skipped to the end... no use in wasting time. I may go back later and read that.

    To answer the questions though

    1. What is your plan? You blast obama, but what is your plan? Maybe we should compare your plan with what obama put out. I have yet to find anyone who thinks we support our schools enough... bush came close, but never properly funded his plan... that is why he fell short.

    2. Not even worth bothering with... off in center field. If nothing ever changed, we would still have slavery and women would not be able to vote, let alone run for President.
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  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    . . . no use in wasting time.
    Seeing as how a) you didn't answer either question, rather you shifted the spotlight and then b) you have incorrectly assessed me (twice now), I will have to ditto the response.

    Anyone else want to actually discuss this?
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Seeing as how a) you didn't answer either question
    I already answered in my second post in this thread. Thought I was rather clear in my explaination.

    rather you shifted the spotlight and then b) you have incorrectly assessed me (twice now),
    No, not really.... but you can spin it anyway you want. Fair enough....


    I will have to ditto the response.
    I know....
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  11. #11  
    Interesting enough, obama's plan seems to address the #1 issue (or so they say) in your second post:

    That problem is the overall quality of people teaching our children.

    That problem is the overall quality of people teaching our children. Students who have chosen education as their major have the lowest SAT scores of any other major. Students who have graduated with an education degree earn lower scores than any other major on graduate school admissions tests such as the GRE, MCAT or LSAT. Schools of education, either graduate or undergraduate, represent the academic slums of most any university. As such, they are home to the least able students and professors with the lowest academic respect.
    That is what is so confusing about this entire thread... are you saying that obama is not doing enough or that there is something better? Of course, you don't want to discuss that. I guess we could always continue down the same road and tell people to suck it up... the gov't does not need to get involved.

    Transform the Teaching Profession

    Teacher Service Scholarships: Pays for four years of undergraduate teacher education or two years of post-graduate in return for four years of teaching service.

    All Schools Accredited: [What will be the impact on home schoolers and charter schools?]

    Teacher Residency Program: Obama will supply 30,000 exceptionally well-prepared recruits to what eduspeak calls high-need schools.

    Career Ladder Initiatives: Expanded teacher mentoring programs will pair experienced teachers with new recruits and provide incentives to give teachers paid common planning time so they can collaborate to share best practices. These initiatives will provide federal resources to states and districts to help create mentoring programs. Obama will provide $1 billion in funding to create mentoring programs and reward veteran teachers for becoming mentors.

    Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay. To be developed with teachers, not imposed on them.

    Middle School Intervention Strategies: Provide funding to school districts to invest in interventional strategies in middle schools such as personal academic plans, teaching teams, parent involvement, mentoring, intensive reading and math instruction, and extended learning time.

    STEP UP Plan: Addresses achievement gap by supporting summer learning opportunities for disadvantaged children.

    Professional Development Schools: Obama will provide $100 million to stimulate teacher education reforms built on school university partnerships.
    State Leadership Academies: Obama will provide funding for academies to enable principals to develop the sophisticated skills they need and provide ongoing financial support. Obama's plan will also support research about the effectiveness of various approaches to principal training.
    And I would not trust American whatever to even post the entire plan correctly... but it seems that obama's plan addresses the changes needed. (*or so it seems... I've not read his entire education plan myself, I must admit.)
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  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog
    And I would not trust American whatever to even post the entire plan correctly... but it seems that obama's plan addresses the changes needed. (*or so it seems... I've not read his entire education plan myself, I must admit.)


    Then what exactly is your purpose in this thread? You have an a priori bias toward the American Thinker (as such I am dubious that you even read the article—particularly in light of your admitting to not understanding the point of the thread) and you can’t even argue that the education plan presented by Obama is sufficient.

    All you’ve done so far is dodge answering the two questions I presented. Yeah, you say you answered them, but I looked and looked but couldn’t find evidence favoring a monetary fix in any of your posts (remember, I presented something as counter-evidence). I also missed your response to my second question which directly is related to this entire thread.

    No hard feelings though.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Considering what is happening across america (this week California), we need some type of gov't intervention to help.

    In another article I was reading last night, a CEO was talking about bring over foreign workers or moving a plant from overseas. The locations that he looked to build, he checked the local schools and found out they were graduating around 50% of their students. That is incredible.

    He stated something like, if he had a product that failed 50% of the time he would scrap it and start over. That is were we are at.

    If obama's plan can get us on the right track, fine. Bush had a pretty good plan, but it was sorely underfunded. And there are other complaints, but no need to get off topic. Even with the complaints anyway, it was a plan that could have worked.

    I mean, in #2 the American Thinker says, "Quadruple funding and improve quality; $250 million dedicated funds to create or expand regional training centers" like this is a bad thing... do they know how much we spend in Iraq?

    If you don't invest in your future you fail to invest. Our schools are in dire straights...

    Although, you could also argue that people don't spend enough time teaching their kids... we can have that discussion as well.
    The problem in education is that there is more emphasis on social engineering that mechanical, electrical and industrial egineering. We have students who know how to put on a condom, but couldn't make correct change if they were selling them. We have school systems that "can't afford" to offer music and art classes to the students, but are funding mandatory sensitivy training to the faculty/staff. We have progams designed to make students feel good despite poor performance, when lesser or equal effort in teaching would boost performance and esteem.
  14. #14  
    I don't think this in itself is a problem. I majored in math, and many years ago, I also tutored high school students in math. Except for calculus, you don't need any college-level math courses to teach high school math. What's important is that you know the subject extremely well (and that you know how to teach well). While people who major in a subject generally tend to already know the basics of that subject better, majoring in math won't help you be a better algebra teacher.

    A key difference between Korea and the US is cultural emphasis on education. Getting good grades and going to good schools is much more valued across Korean society.

    In the US, we like to look at performance of schools solely as a function of the quality of the teachers, while ignoring the other, more important input variables: the students, and the support of their families. If American students don't value education as much as students in other countries, they simply won't learn as much. Unfortunately, the government has little direct control over the values of a nation.

    That said, there's also a great deal of respect for teachers in Korea. They're kinda right up there with doctors and lawyers. So they do get a lot of smart people going into teaching.

    To the extent that teacher quality is a problem, significantly improving teacher compensation would do a lot to attract better teachers. When I graduated many years ago, I briefly considered teaching as a career. But I realized that I couldn't accept the limited income potential over the long run.

    Now just increasing teacher pay won't change things quickly enough; you'll have mostly the same teachers getting more money. They won't teach any better. You need to couple the increased pay with a merit-based system which gets rid of bad teachers and attracts new blood. The problem is that the teachers unions will stand in the way of anything that threatens the tenure system.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    That's an interesting assessment of the article; I'll have to perpend on that for a while.
    Sorry, but the articles on this site are rather obviously tilted one way. My only point is that it is hard for me to even look at it given the tone of the web site itself. It seems to me that you are quite intelligent and more than able to articulate your concerns without using a site such as this to do it for you and/or could probably find better sources that don't appear to be so obviously anti-Obama.

    That said, I am guilty of not reading it (for reasons already stated) so I will peruse it. I've already stated that I think Obama's politics are more liberal than I care for - but I don't believe he'll be able to move the country into socialism without a fight and find that notion to be right-wing fear mongering more than reality.
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    While people who major in a subject generally tend to already know the basics of that subject better, majoring in math won't help you be a better algebra teacher.
    I would agree; I think what it boils down to is increasing the probability of quality understanding of the material.

    Quote Originally Posted by samkim
    A key difference between Korea and the US is cultural emphasis on education. Getting good grades and going to good schools is much more valued across Korean society.
    As a man married to a first generation immigrant (mother-in-law) from Korea, I wholeheartedly agree.

    I tend to get annoyed by those who simply point to lack of funding when, upon minimal research, one can find examples of schools or educators who had little to work with, yet managed to defeat the odds and improve the lives of many.

    I don’t necessarily have a problem with spending more money per se; however, that tends to be lower on my list of corrective action items for the education system.

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    Sorry, but the articles on this site are rather obviously tilted one way. My only point is that it is hard for me to even look at it given the tone of the web site itself.
    I hear you. I try and balance my sources (though I suspect I tilt towards more conservative sources) as well as objectively look at the things I read. I honestly must admit that I am not a regular reader of the American Thinker, but I have seen a number of articles that have intrigued me.

    I suspect the volume of Obama articles is more regarding they hype surrounding him than tilt—or simply, it’s what’s on our plates to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    It seems to me that you are quite intelligent and more than able to articulate your concerns without using a site such as this to do it for you and/or could probably find better sources that don't appear to be so obviously anti-Obama.
    While I myself appreciate your kind words, please oh please consider my poor wife who must deal with my head as it swells!

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    That said, I am guilty of not reading it (for reasons already stated) so I will peruse it. I've already stated that I think Obama's politics are more liberal than I care for - but I don't believe he'll be able to move the country into socialism without a fight and find that notion to be right-wing fear mongering more than reality.
    Personally, I don’t think there will be any leader who “moves” us into socialism; I do see us moving in that direction slowly (though remain optimistic that we may turn the opposite direction at any time).

    As I’ve alluded to in a different thread, what I personally fear the most are people who simply are enthralled by Obama and his surface-level candor but either cannot speak to what positions he holds or—even worse—cannot engage how those positions are actually good (I’m not accusing anyone here specifically, just stating).
    Last edited by DL.Cummings; 03/28/2008 at 08:00 AM. Reason: formatting
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    As I’ve alluded to in a different thread, what I personally fear the most are people who simply are enthralled by Obama and his surface-level candor but either cannot speak to what positions he holds or—even worse—cannot engage how those positions are actually good (I’m not accusing anyone here specifically, just stating).
    Let's be fair - is this really any different than those that voted for George W. Bush simply because they'd rather have him over for a backyard BBQ? For that matter, I'm not sure that rallying behind Obama simply because he is a good orator is any different than those that vote for candidates for other single reasons such as abortion or gun laws.

    Granted it is not wise to vote for a candidate based on one perceived strength; it does not seem to be a unique phenomenon to Obama from my vantage point. Rather, its what I call America's "USA Today" politics whereby they consume any and all information in bullet points - particularly when picking their political leaders.

    When it comes to the American Electorate the fabled PT Barnum quote applies, "...nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Let's be fair - is this really any different than those that voted for George W. Bush simply because they'd rather have him over for a backyard BBQ?
    Not really; however, a better comparison (particularly considering Bush) would be those who voted for him based primarily on his perceived religious status.

    Despite falling in the category of "evangelical" those voting "reasons" infuriated me to no end. I remember hearing it all such as, "You're a Christian first, American second." I don't know how many times I tried to inform people that someone could quite possibly be a great Christian, yet a poor leader of the US and there was no correlation between Christianity and leadership--falling on deaf ears all to often.

    For that matter, I'm not sure that rallying behind Obama simply because he is a good orator is any different than those that vote for candidates for other single reasons such as abortion or gun laws.
    I agree with the exception of those single issue that tend to be BIG single issues (such as national security, etc).
    Last edited by DL.Cummings; 03/28/2008 at 08:40 AM. Reason: spelling . . . again
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    I don’t necessarily have a problem with spending more money per se; however, that tends to be lower on my list of corrective action items for the education system.
    How would you propose attracting the higher quality teachers that you noted are lacking today - without spending more money?

    What is higher on your list of corrective action items for the education system?
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    How would you propose attracting the higher quality teachers that you noted are lacking today - without spending more money?

    What is higher on your list of corrective action items for the education system?
    Honestly (and as a matter of brevity), I believe that a start would be to relinquish most of the authority over schools from government and hand it over to the private sector.

    I know for many school teachers this is anathema, but my priority here giving students the optimal opportunity first.

    I say this primarily for two reasons:
    1. Most often that I recall, teachers complain much of the problems are directly related to the administration and its inner-workings.
    2. As I see it, while the private sector concept presents problems of its own, there simply very few areas of society where the private sector is not more efficient than the government.
    Great! My idea allows the private sector to be more fruitful AND gets bureaucracy out of teacher's way. Well, that's the short and sweet response.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM

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