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  1.    #1  
    after Gov. Spritzer’s rapid fall into disgrace, I want to learn what everyone else regards as private behavior that deserves criminalization.

    When does a private act between adults -- or even an act committed to oneself -- become worthy of criminal sanction ??

    Most explicitly this is relevant to what happened here: a woman consented to entertain and have a “relationship” with someone in exchange for $4300 per hour.

    Who has been harmed ?? Why is it of your concern ?? Why are the parties to this private arrangement forced to be furtive and humiliated by fear of persecution ??

    Many of the same issues arise from things like private marijuana use as well -- but at least there the proponents of drug laws have some arguable (if terribly flawed) logic they can use to support their point of view.

    But in regards to “prostitution” -- particularly the kind that transacts in private between knowing adults, where is the crime -- who is the victim. why should we care ??

    (though prostitution is the sexy topic du jour, any criminalized victimless event is germane for discussion).
    .
    Did Eliot Spitzer get caught because he didn't spend enough on prostitutes?
    By Sudhir Venkatesh Slate Magazine
    Wednesday, March 12, 2008

    The first thing that grabs your attention about the sex scandal involving New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer is, of course, the client. But, there's another aspect to the story that should raise eyebrows: $4,300. That's the bill Spitzer incurred for his dangerous liaison at the Mayflower hotel. Who would pay that much, and could you ever really get your money's worth?

    In fact, $4,300 is not an altogether alarming sum of money in the high-end sex market. Spitzer got a bargain—and that may have been his downfall.

    In many so-called global cities, like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, sex is part of a lucrative service sector that has developed for those with expendable income. Soliciting a prostitute can be as pricey as hiring a personal chef or finding a private school for your kids. In New York, it's not hard to find sex workers who charge $10,000 per "session," which can last for 15 minutes or two hours (jokes aside).

    ...the biggest changes in recent years have occurred at the upper end of the market. Cities that cleaned up their red-light districts, like Chicago's West Side or Hell's Kitchen in Manhattan, pushed the sex-work trade indoors—to the Internet, to strip clubs, to escort services. These indoor sex workers created a larger, less publicly visible market that tends to serve the middle and upper classes

    The older prototype: In the past, sex workers tended to view their role as part-time "survivors"—selling sex to keep up a drug habit, to pay rent, or to eke out a living until something better came along. Pushed indoors, some became "careerist." They were professionals offering a legitimate service, like nursing or counseling; they looked at their work as partly therapeutic. These indoor workers stay in the game for longer periods of time because they find a level of autonomy and flexibility that the legitimate economy often does not provide. They're also less likely to be targeted by cops, social workers, or clergy, all of whom work to get street-based prostitutes out of the profession. The street-based prostitute tends to leave the job after six to nine months, returning when money is tight or drugs need to be purchased.

    ...At the lucrative end of the market, I have found it useful to think of three tiers of women (men constitute only about 10 percent of high-end prostitutes). Spitzer was paying for "Tier 1" sex workers: Fees usually range from $2,000 to $5,000 per session; women come in all ages and ethnic stripes; they rigorously guard their health and watch for STDs...

    "Tier 2" includes women who charge up to $7,500 for a session. These women tend to be white, they may have a college degree (or be actively enrolled in school), and they usually require a referral before they will take on a new john. They also have a small, exclusive clientele, sometimes as few as a dozen men whom they service. Unlike Tier 1 workers, they do not rely on escort agencies, so they keep all of their money.

    Finally, there are the "Tier 3" sex workers, who can charge in excess of $10,000 per rendezvous. They may have only four or five clients, and they typically charge their clients an additional monthly surcharge for their various needs...
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/15/2008 at 08:55 AM.
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  2. #2  
    Prostitution is not thought of as victimless.

    Both participants are at greatly increased risk of STD's, and both parties are at high risk of exploitation and violence.

    Similar acts are also frowned on by society e.g. teachers having sex with students, uncontrolled medical experiments, or extremely dangerous working conditions, e.g. construction workers working without appropriate safety procedures. Just because both parties consent does not mean the consensus of society is that its a dangerous act which compromises both parties.

    Its just one example of state supervision, similar to speed limits on roads, designed to reduce risk.

    Surur
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Prostitution is not thought of as victimless.

    Both participants are at greatly increased risk of STD's, and both parties are at high risk of exploitation and violence.

    Similar acts are also frowned on by society e.g. teachers having sex with students, uncontrolled medical experiments, or extremely dangerous working conditions, e.g. construction workers working without appropriate safety procedures. Just because both parties consent does not mean the consensus of society is that its a dangerous act which compromises both parties.

    Its just one example of state supervision, similar to speed limits on roads, designed to reduce risk.

    Surur

    by your reasoning, we ought ban adolescence, hormones, and booze since that probably contributes more to STDs than just about anything else.

    Every other example you've mentioned has an identifiable "victim", and is therefore not analogous.

    A child taken advantage of by a priest or a teacher is in no way comparable to two mature adults having a privately rendered service.

    Do regulations ensuring that workers get provided protection on their jobs serve as a useful illustration of your POV on prostitution ?? Could n't the same regulation theory be similarly applied to ensure that they use "protection", and thus protect themselves and others ??
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    by your reasoning, we ought ban adolescence, hormones, and booze since that probably contributes more to STDs than just about anything else.
    Well, teenage sex is not sanctioned by society, so its pretty analogous, and if an adult had sex with a 15 year old they would get in a lot of trouble, irrespective of consent. Its banned as much as society could ban it. The only reason teenages who have consensual sex are not prosecuted is because the punishment would be worse than the crime. This still does not mean society happily accepts this situation.

    A child taken advantage of by a priest or a teacher is in no way comparable to two mature adults having a privately rendered service.
    Even if a university professor had sex with his adult student he or she would likely face problems due to this, and may be prosecuted for misconduct by his faculty. Again consent does not protect from this.

    Do regulations ensuring that workers get provided protection on their jobs serve as a useful illustration of your POV on prostitution ?? Could n't the same regulation theory be similarly applied to ensure that they use "protection", and thus protect themselves and others ??
    In theory it could, and I suppose this is how it works in places where prostitution is legalized and regulated. The problem is that prostitution is a recreational activity for the punter at least, so allowing a dangerous activity just for recreation vs simply banning it is always a difficult choice. Its not the same as a high rise scaffold worker having his occupation closely regulated, because his work is essential.

    Surur
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Prostitution is not thought of as victimless.

    Both participants are at greatly increased risk of STD's, and both parties are at high risk of exploitation and violence.

    Similar acts are also frowned on by society e.g. teachers having sex with students, uncontrolled medical experiments, or extremely dangerous working conditions, e.g. construction workers working without appropriate safety procedures. Just because both parties consent does not mean the consensus of society is that its a dangerous act which compromises both parties.

    Its just one example of state supervision, similar to speed limits on roads, designed to reduce risk.

    Surur

    I find it fascinating that you don't mind giving the "state" such providence, yet offer enthusiastic opposition when similar principles are put forth by the "church" (especially when the "church" lacks an arm of enforcement).
  6. #6  
    Well then I guess no shared activity is victimless : eating over at a friends house , breaking bread , pot lucks , hands on healers , dating , . everything has risks . i guess in a perfect world there wouldn't be any exploitation or disease or desire . That would be interesting ... NoT !
    I'm perplexed on how america is so crazy about sex ! I understand we're all victims of a dark age and some folks just aren't born with a sense of humor . But hell Even the Sexy people want to hang the Sexy people ! It's jut not logical ! It's got to be one of those Religious side effects ! Man o Man I wouldn't make religion illegal but I sure would keep it between consenting adults 21 and over ! When I saw that Guy Spritzer broken confessing his sins , I couldn't understand why he didn't defend himself and tell all those opportunist twits to get a life . Then It hit me . He's either Religious or he's answering to someone who is . If there's religion involved , all bets are off !
  7. #7  
    Her rate was actually $1000 per hour, though he made a $4300 payment. Part of it was for a future or past session. $4300 per hour would just be ridiculous.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Her rate was actually $1000 per hour, though he made a $4300 payment. Part of it was for a future or past session. $4300 per hour would just be ridiculous.
    according to the Slate article I linked to, some earn even $10,000 per event
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #9  
    Still trying to make it ok to do whatever you want.
  10. #10  
    Good legislation bans or restricts behavior of which the real consequences undermine the continuance of the governed body
  11. #11  
    Are these high-class hookers paying their fair share of the tax bill?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Are these high-class hookers paying their fair share of the tax bill?
    perhaps a more apropriate question is whether their tax participation is any more or less than other cash based enterprises ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I find it fascinating that you don't mind giving the "state" such providence, yet offer enthusiastic opposition when similar principles are put forth by the "church" (especially when the "church" lacks an arm of enforcement).
    Laws by man can be challenged by man (as our monkey friend ironically is at the moment) Laws passed by God are not amenable to the same treatment.

    Surur
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    perhaps a more apropriate question is whether their tax participation is any more or less than other cash based enterprises ...
    That would be a corollary point. However, my question does seem to be more in tune with participation by government officials. Should civil servants be active participants in tax fraud? After all, people have killed their political careers by not paying taxes on nannies or house cleaning. Why should their concubines be any less damaging?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Laws by man can be challenged by man (as our monkey friend ironically is at the moment) Laws passed by God are not amenable to the same treatment.

    Surur
    Using Mr. Spitzer's situation as an example, it seems that the violation of man's law is generating much greater concern than that of God's.

    Why even the monkey considers the event victimless, despite the apparent breach of contract/covenant between NY's Governor and the first lady.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Using Mr. Spitzer's situation as an example, it seems that the violation of man's law is generating much greater concern than that of God's.
    As it should. Its up to society to hold people accountable for breaking its laws, while God obviously should be extracting His punishment itself.
  17. #17  
    Personally, I don't think VOLUNTARY prostitution should be a crime.

    However, in the Gov's case, I do think it is appropriate for him to take the hit due to his public 'crime fighting' against prostitution.

    To criminalize prostitution, seems to me that we are imposing our own moral judgements on others. Assuming, of course, consenting ADULTS.

    No difinitive decision can be made on prostitution, but the Gov got caught violating his own standards, so got what he 'deserved'.

    Just my opinion,
    RJuhl
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Using Mr. Spitzer's situation as an example, it seems that the violation of man's law is generating much greater concern than that of God's.

    Why even the monkey considers the event victimless, despite the apparent breach of contract/covenant between NY's Governor and the first lady.
    How can THE MONKEY regard it as anything but victimless from the POV of society ??

    How in the specifics of the Spitzer example ($4300/hr adult, no STDs exchanged -- presumably), was society harmed ?? What right does anyone have to criminalize what two intelligent adults knowingly choose to do in private ??

    A marriage partner can well be justified in feeling betrayed, mislead, and deceived when their husband (or wife) pays to get something that they aren’t getting for free at home. But you could persuasively argue that getting that service in the form of non-romantic physical entertainment is in fact preserving the core intimacy of their relationship.

    The criminalization of this essentially victimless exchange is a blow (as it were) to what I always thought of as a core american value: to be left alone unless we trespass on someone else’s right to be left alone -- i.e. personal freedom.

    That was the reason why most (though not all) laws criminalizing sodomy were repealed or invalidated. Its part of the reason laws making inter-racial relationships a crime were repealed. (Though unforgivably, interspecies conduct is still considered unlawful ).

    At root what many of you are metaphorically advocating is islamic stoning.

    Many of you are saying that “society’s” vested interests supercede the personal desires and rights of individuals. That the state at its whim can impose its “morality”. Personal liberty and private sanctuary be damned.

    Saudi Arabia provides a wondrous example of where this line of thought has found its purest expression.

    (btw, THE MONKEY reminds everyone that honorific protocol requires capitalization even when the referenced deity is in the third party...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  19. #19  
    While in this particular case its much more likely Mr Spitzer than the prostitute who was exploited, a small percentage of cases should not invalidate the majority of cases where prostitution is goes hand in hands with drug addiction and abuse.

    Many of you are saying that “society’s” vested interests supersede the personal desires and rights of individuals. That the state at its whim can impose its “morality”. Personal liberty and private sanctuary be damned.
    Surely the opposite, where the needs of others and the mores of society are completely ignored is not exactly desirable either, and in fact we have a name for it, calling people like these sociopaths.

    A balance between individual rights and the needs of society are important, and a healthy civil society would have a large number of checks and balances in place to ensure this takes place.

    Rampant exploitation of woman and uncontrolled STD's are not in the interest of society, resulting for example is situations like in parts of South Africa where the rate of HIV infection is up to 35% amongst women in ante-natal clinics.

    From another article:

    SEX WORKERS

    Miners -- many migrant workers -- risk their lives to make money daily, so unprotected sex seems a minor hazard.

    Remote mine sites attract sex workers. In the mining province Yunnan in China, sex workers from Myanmar and Vietnam are a high-risk group likely to spread the disease as illegal migrants fear the threat of deportation if they contact public health services.

    "This is the nature of our business, it attracts sex workers, whether we like it or not we cannot wish it away," said Stella Ntimbane, group HIV/AIDS coordinator for Gold Fields in South Africa. Clients of sex workers are a major bridge of HIV transmission to the general population. In 2005 the ILO estimated that 1.4 million sex workers were forced labour, without access to treatment.

    Russia, China and India and the broader continent of Africa face a huge urban-rural divide, limiting rural access to HIV clinics. In often inhospitable mining areas workers and their communities depend on services provided by the mining firm.

    Poverty adds to the risk of infection and the virus creates a vicious circle, with an estimated cost of 0.5 to 2 percent of the GDP growth in the worst-hit countries.
    http://www.minesandcommunities.org/Action/press1583.htm

    The main point I want to raise is that prostitution is a dangerous line of work, and laws surrounding it should be seen in that light, rather than in a moralistic fashion.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/13/2008 at 06:14 PM.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    While in this particular case its much more likely Mr Spitzer than the prostitute who was exploited, a small percentage of cases should not invalidate the majority of cases where prostitution is goes hand in hands with drug addiction and abuse.


    Surely the opposite, where the needs of others and the mores of society are completely ignored is not exactly desirable either, and in fact we have a name for it, calling people like these sociopaths.

    A balance between individual rights and the needs of society are important, and a healthy civil society would have a large number of checks and balances in place to ensure this takes place.

    Rampant exploitation of woman and uncontrolled STD's are not in the interest of society, resulting for example is situations like in parts of South Africa where the rate of HIV infection is up to 35% amongst women in ante-natal clinics.

    The main point I want to raise is that prostitution is a dangerous line of work, and laws surrounding it should be seen in that light, rather than in a moralistic fashion.

    Surur

    it is precisely because of examples like you cite that the problems that you've mentioned occur.

    The criminalized illicict nature of the participants and the enterprise itself, makes exploitation unavoidable.

    Look at nearly every economic transaction crime -- drugs, prostitution, bootlegging -- law enforcement channeled them into becoming far more destructive than they would have been had they been simply regulated, supervised, and normalized (like any other business).

    The street walking AIDs infested women of S Africa are exploited, desperate, and devalued. They have almost no control over their fate or their bodies. They are controled both by pimps and by the police who act as enforcers and "regulators".

    But most of them have no better way to earn a living.

    Perhaps you're a computer programmer. Now I personally find computer programming a disturbingly immoral activity.

    Because I love you surur, I'm going to advocate that you should be protected from having to work in such an immoral and corrupt profession.

    Unfortunely for you its the only thing you know how to do that can earn you any decent money. And since there are still folks out there who need programming, you are able to still get work. But the laws I've pushed for have made it harder for you to advertise and to get customers.

    You're force to "contract" with a service company that hooks you up with jobs -- and acts as a buffer between both the police and abusive customers.

    But in exchange, your service keeps 50% of what you're paid -- and if you ever refuse a gig you'd be severly punished.

    I hope every day that you'll eventually wake up, abandon your exploited and destructive career, and get a morally good, real job like working as a busboy or a waiter...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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