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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    That said...Spitzer will resign by Friday because his party is seeing to it that he steps down sooner than later....as they well should. Mr. Vitter continues to serve the last time I checked.
    Not that the time frame of one's actions has anything to do with such things:

    Spitzer:

    Feb. 13, 2008 was his most recent known date of offense--a mere month before he was outed.

    Vitter:

    Feb. 27, 2001 was his most recent known date of offense--about 6 1/2 years before his public outing.



    I'm not giving a pass to either one of them, just noting that a six year old impropriety isn't a very strong one (at least for this particular offense).
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post

    I'm not giving a pass to either one of them, just noting that a six year old impropriety isn't a very strong one (at least for this particular offense).
    Since he is part of the self-proclaimed "moral majority" - the same moral majority that criticized Clinton and prosecuted him to the tune of $70mm in tax payer dollars while their speaker of the house (Gingrich) was having an extra-marital affair himself - I tend to think he and the "moral majority" party are hypocritical.

    But again, as has been said by more reasonable members up here - this is not unique to any one party. Truth be told, the guy had a big ego but did a lot of good deeds in NYS. It is a shame he got too big for his own britches and similar to other politicians (Repubs and Dems alike) have done before him, abused his power and thought he was infallible.....he wasn't.

    He needs to resign. Now.
  3.    #23  
    "excuse me -- but paying for consential sex is not the same as selling your vote to a lobbyist on behalf of gambling interests.

    Its not even the same as being a santimonious evangelical preacher who rails about homos while paying to have gay sex

    Or of catholic priests who preach of about the sanctity of marriage between men and women while raping choir boys.

    repugnicans are unbelievably hot and wet to find any democratic immorality that somehow compares to theirs"..

    barye.

    Excuse me, the republicans have nothing on the scandals, corruption and deceit within the demoncrat party.

    Please, barye. Who are you kidding here, really? The demoncrats are EVERY BIT as likely to engage in scandals and corruption, if not more so ( look at new jersey!!!), than the the republicans.

    Its just a known fact. For your every attempt to slander the right with instances of crooked practices, one can tag the left for just as many equally damning examples of outright violations of the public trust. All spin aside.

    Face the facts. Your dem'cats are every bit as corrupt as the republicans which you're regularly trying to spin as the evil empire. They simply wear different uniforms. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just the way it is.

    End of story.
  4.    #24  
    duplicate message deleted.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    excuse me -- but paying for consensual sex is not the same as selling your vote to a lobbyist on behalf of gambling interests.

    Its not even the same as being a sanctimonious evangelical preacher who rails about homos while paying to have gay sex

    Or of catholic priests who preach of about the sanctity of marriage between men and women while raping choir boys.

    repugnicans are unbelievably hot and wet to find any democratic immorality that somehow compares to theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by logmein View Post

    barye.

    Excuse me, the republicans have nothing on the scandals, corruption and deceit within the demoncrat party.

    Please, barye. Who are you kidding here, really? The demoncrats are EVERY BIT as likely to engage in scandals and corruption, if not more so ( look at new jersey!!!), than the the republicans.

    Its just a known fact. For your every attempt to slander the right with instances of crooked practices, one can tag the left for just as many equally damning examples of outright violations of the public trust. All spin aside.

    Face the facts. Your dem'cats are every bit as corrupt as the republicans which you're regularly trying to spin as the evil empire. They simply wear different uniforms. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just the way it is.

    End of story.

    Why is it that Spritzer's dalliance with the Emperor Club is such a big deal ?? Why is there such an uproar ?? Why is everyone so AROUSED over this ??

    He used his own money for a few hours of wholesome private entertainment. Expensive quality entertainment. Is that comparable to receiving money (and hookers) for voting the way that a lobbyist wanted on legislation where they materially gained ??

    Is it comparable to exploiting a sanctified religious position to sexually abuse children whom they were trusted to care for ??

    Is it comparable to the knowing action of a congressional leader who protected a subordinate who was responsible for the care of young interns and pages, blocking revelations about how that subordinate abused and sodomized them ??

    The tawdry list of grotesque repugnican infamy is far longer than I can recite.

    The difference with democrats is that the puritans who chase and torment them are almost always inspired by affairs that involved consensual adults.

    repugs in particular (and humans in general) -- have a problem with sensuality and sexuality. Any acknowledgment of it and of how irrationally driven they themselves are by it, terrifies them.

    Perhaps as a result they take a special hideous pleasure from shouting SHAME !!! at every democrat who's beastial truth accidentally emerges (in part to distract from their side's much seamier revelations).

    Sanctimony by its nature is predicated on a lie -- a lie whose essence is to pretend to be holier than thou.

    This phoney pose of purity -- posing as above the flesh's temptations-- leads inevitably to Swaggarts, Mormon child "brides", and furtive assignations in dank bathroom stalls.

    These are all a product of the pressure cooker of constrained sexuality -- sexual lies that ultimately become expressed in horrible disfiguring dishonesty.

    In as much as Spritzer was a moral poser I agree that he’s earned his comeuppance. In as much as he prosecuted the sexual crimes of prostitution his hypocrisy ought be exposed -- and maybe punished similarly to how he punished others.

    But that hypocrisy cannot in any way be compared to the ones I earlier mentioned.

    By their nature, almost all human's are hypocrites. Almost all of them have their own private lusts and fantasies -- secret compulsions that they’re too shamed to admit or confront. -- while they often attempt to criminalize everyone else’s.

    Unlike humans, BARYE's compatriots are not inhibited by any false morality. Our specie does it whenever and wherever we please -- and are all the happier for it...

    (By the way my solicitor has urged me to reiterate that there is no evidence whatsoever that BARYE has any connection at all to “The Emperor Club”. Rumours to the contrary are entirely defamatory.

    To those emailing me in the hope of gaining "admission", I must remind everyone that membership in The Emperor's Club is restricted to former Heads of State, Presidents, or sitting Governors. Unless you fall into one those specific categories you can -- as they say in NY -- forgetaboutit !!!...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/12/2008 at 04:13 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. #26  
    It is done. Promptly. Graciously. And more dignified than Vitter or Craig could ever hope to be. Spitzer has resigned and taken "personal responsibility" for his actions (I thought you'd like that Ben).

    I'm angry with him for his arrogance and hypocrisy. Yet, he leaves with some semblence of respect that he knew he had to hold himself to the very same standards he expected of others (right from wrong). I thought his speech announcing his resignation were humble and sincere. It's all really a tragedy as I still think he was a good public servant (up until now) and with teenage daughters and a beautiful wife I just cannot imagine what was going through this guys head.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Is that comparable to receiving money (and hookers) for voting the way that a lobbyist wanted on legislation where they materially gained ??

    Is it comparable to exploiting a sanctified religious position to sexually abuse children whom they were trusted to care for ??

    Is it comparable to the knowing action of a congressional leader who protected a subordinate who was responsible for the care of young interns and pages, blocking revelations about how that subordinate abused and sodomized them ??

    The tawdry list of grotesque repugnican infamy is far longer than I can recite.......

    But that hypocrisy cannot in any way be compared to the ones I earlier mentioned.
    This is a perfectly classic example of how I said party loyalists with blinders on react when one of their own gets caught doing the same thing they love jumping on the other side for doing:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Dems jump on the chance to point out when a GOP member gets caught in a scandal, sexual entanglement, questionable ethical behavior, etc...

    I have seen Reps to the exact same thing on TV, the radio, here on this forum, etc... especially the last few days.

    But in nearly every case of one side jumping on the the actions of another politician of the other party, there is very little acknowledgment that the same action happens on their side as well (or even willingness to even discuss it). If they do, it is usually something along the lines of "Yes, but they do it more, so we are not as bad". In other words, a little embezzlement or bribery is okay as long as the other side gets caught doing it more....it's okay then.
    Thank you Barye for illustrating my point so effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Why is it that Spritzer's dalliance with the Emperor Club is such a big deal ?? Why is there such an uproar ?? Why is everyone so AROUSED over this ??

    He used his own money for a few hours of wholesome private entertainment. Expensive quality entertainment.
    Why is it a big deal....because it is illegal. Let alone all the potential laws that had to be potentially broken in order to engage in his private entertainment. All of this as the chief law enforcement officer in his state!

    First of all the transfer of money was not declared, which since it is just under $5,000 (the normal going rate for the girl he was with) he must have had a coupon or something because that is the breaking point felonies. But when repeated or shown to be under $5000 with the purpose of evading the $5000 declaring, it is again illegal....due to classified as money laundering.

    It is a federal offense to transfer funds across state lines that will knowingly go to support an illegal organization.

    It was being reported yesterday that today they were going to show that this has been a repeated offense going back 6 years.....during the same time he was investigating and/or putting people in jail for the exact same offenses.

    The other serious questions that needs to be answered is....did he use public funds support this potential habit? Did he claim business travel expenses for the ultimate purpose of his entertainment? Did he use public salary employees for security during this time? All of these questions are either being currently investigated or have answers to that have not been released yet.

    So the answer again to your question, that does not seem to bother you at all, is that as Governor, the head law enforcement officer, he apparently broke several local and federal laws, potentially repeated offenses going back a span of six years.


    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    This phoney pose of purity...

    Unlike humans, BARYE's compatriots are not inhibited by any false morality....
    Very nice spin!! Ignore the multitude of illegal acts committed. Deny liability of any illegal acts by claiming a witch hunt on morality, regardless if the offense were actually, maybe....against the law?

    Do you have to ask why is this a big deal because he is Dem? I have little doubt that if it was a Rep, you would be all over it as a classic show of hypocrisy.

    But if you want to go down the hypocrisy road, this not the example to build your case on. This very act he was caught doing while being in public office, is the very example of what he campaigned against. It is the very platform that his Governorship sits on.

    Can you honestly say that if he was a Republican, that you would be giving him the exact same free pass you are giving him right now?????

    But with that aside, as that is not the issue with me at all. It was an illegal act. I don't care if he was Rep, Dem, or Green.....if guilty he needs to be held accountable. Period. Party affiliation has NOTHING to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    By their nature, almost all human's are hypocrites. Almost all of them have their own private lusts and fantasies -- secret compulsions that they’re too shamed to admit or confront. -- while they often attempt to criminalize everyone else’s.
    Again....maybe because the crimes are illegal??
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/12/2008 at 11:37 AM.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    It is done. Promptly. Graciously. And more dignified than Vitter or Craig could ever hope to be. Spitzer has resigned and taken "personal responsibility" for his actions (I thought you'd like that Ben).

    I'm angry with him for his arrogance and hypocrisy. Yet, he leaves with some semblence of respect that he knew he had to hold himself to the very same standards he expected of others (right from wrong). I thought his speech announcing his resignation were humble and sincere. It's all really a tragedy as I still think he was a good public servant (up until now) and with teenage daughters and a beautiful wife I just cannot imagine what was going through this guys head.
    I agree with the travesty with his wife and daughters....I could not even imagine having to go thru that with my family privately, let alone with all the free watching.

    Have you heard if this was part of plea bargain? There was talk he was keeping his resigning as a chip on the table for no federal criminal charges and possibly in exchange for testifying against the prostitution ring. I have listened to any news this morning, so I haven't heard anything yet either way.

    Has the Dem party made a statement?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BAYRE
    Why is it that Spritzer's dalliance with the Emperor Club is such a big deal ??
    Why is there such an uproar ??
    Why is everyone so AROUSED over this ??


    1: He broke the law (doesn’t matter if it should or should not be a violation of law—it currently is and he knew it). If the media came out and said he had a subscription to Playboy or Hustler, most people really wouldn’t care (me included).

    2: What he did could very well cost the typical man 50% of his possessions, his children and a headache that Excedrin won’t fix. We really should give a man a pass on something that could cost us dearly? I know, maybe a high-five for getting’ away with it huh?

    3: He breached his marriage vows. While this isn’t necessarily any of the public’s business, it is one of the more telling indicators of whether or not the public can trust a man they have never met. Had he violated his marriage vows, been privately caught, redeemed himself within his family public sentiment would be different. How? They could see the crucial part of the problem—his willingness to admit wrongdoing AND become a better person. Skepticism is typically low regarding one’s honest reform when the appearance is more genuine and not just more political yammering.

    Is it comparable to [insert any of the improprieties from BAYRE here]


    No. Additionally, the moral, ethical and legal standing of such an action are judge primarily on the action itself (along with intent, etc.) and not how it compares to other wrongdoings.

    What a weird way of thinking? Imagine that you have a brother who is racists and kills someone solely on those grounds. Then imagine I punch you because I think you stole a dollar from me. Should my response be:

    “Well, is what I did comparable to your brother who killed someone solely based on race?”

    The tawdry list of grotesque repugnican infamy is far longer than I can recite.


    Yes, and the Democrat slate is completely clean huh?

    In as much as Spritzer was a moral poser I agree that he’s earned his comeuppance. In as much as he prosecuted the sexual crimes of prostitution his hypocrisy ought be exposed -- and maybe punished similarly to how he punished others.



    Even more of an interesting methodology for thinking (provided I read correctly). Your willingness to see his punishment come to fruition isn’t based on any moral clarity of the action itself; rather, on the notion he held others to a standard for which he came up short.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I agree with the travesty with his wife and daughters....I could not even imagine having to go thru that with my family privately, let alone with all the free watching.

    Have you heard if this was part of plea bargain? There was talk he was keeping his resigning as a chip on the table for no federal criminal charges and possibly in exchange for testifying against the prostitution ring. I have listened to any news this morning, so I haven't heard anything yet either way.

    Has the Dem party made a statement?
    I heard the same thing - it was part of a plea bargain. And the Dems are (foolishly) silent on the matter from what I can tell. In light of the Vitter's and Craig's on the GOP side, the Dems could claim some moral high ground here by stating emphatically that they won't tolerate this behavior within their ranks. But that would require the Dems to agree on something...
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Why is it that Spritzer's dalliance with the Emperor Club is such a big deal ?? Why is there such an uproar ?? Why is everyone so AROUSED over this ??

    He used his own money for a few hours of wholesome private entertainment. Expensive quality entertainment. Is that comparable to receiving money (and hookers) for voting the way that a lobbyist wanted on legislation where they materially gained ??

    Is it comparable to exploiting a sanctified religious position to sexually abuse children whom they were trusted to care for ??

    Is it comparable to the knowing action of a congressional leader who protected a subordinate who was responsible for the care of young interns and pages, blocking revelations about how that subordinate abused and sodomized them ??

    The tawdry list of grotesque repugnican infamy is far longer than I can recite.

    The difference with democrats is that the puritans who chase and torment them are almost always inspired by affairs that involved consensual adults.

    repugs in particular (and humans in general) -- have a problem with sensuality and sexuality. Any acknowledgment of it and of how irrationally driven they themselves are by it, terrifies them.

    Perhaps as a result they take a special hideous pleasure from shouting SHAME !!! at every democrat who's beastial truth accidentally emerges (in part to distract from their side's much seamier revelations).

    Sanctimony by its nature is predicated on a lie -- a lie whose essence is to pretend to be holier than thou.

    This phoney pose of purity -- posing as above the flesh's temptations-- leads inevitably to Swaggarts, Mormon child "brides", and furtive assignations in dank bathroom stalls.

    These are all a product of the pressure cooker of constrained sexuality -- sexual lies that ultimately become expressed in horrible disfiguring dishonesty.

    In as much as Spritzer was a moral poser I agree that he’s earned his comeuppance. In as much as he prosecuted the sexual crimes of prostitution his hypocrisy ought be exposed -- and maybe punished similarly to how he punished others.

    But that hypocrisy cannot in any way be compared to the ones I earlier mentioned.

    By their nature, almost all human's are hypocrites. Almost all of them have their own private lusts and fantasies -- secret compulsions that they’re too shamed to admit or confront. -- while they often attempt to criminalize everyone else’s.

    Unlike humans, BARYE's compatriots are not inhibited by any false morality. Our specie does it whenever and wherever we please -- and are all the happier for it...

    (By the way my solicitor has urged me to reiterate that there is no evidence whatsoever that BARYE has any connection at all to “The Emperor Club”. Rumours to the contrary are entirely defamatory.

    To those emailing me in the hope of gaining "admission", I must remind everyone that membership in The Emperor's Club is restricted to former Heads of State, Presidents, or sitting Governors. Unless you fall into one those specific categories you can -- as they say in NY -- forgetaboutit !!!...)
    If you and your "compatriots" are so righteously uninhibited by false morality, barye, why arent you equally as supportive of the repubs and demoncats, then? Wouldnt you be all the happier for it? Judging by your regular attempts to criminalize the republicans here, arent you being a bit of a hypocrit? Methinks so. Another example of sanctimoniousness? Mmm.. yep.

    Humans by nature are flawed. Of course. THEREFORE, regarding corruption and tendency towards immoral or scandalous behavior, the two parties are, without question, equal.

    Spitzer CAMPAIGNED against the very practices he engaged in. Horribly disfiguring dishonesty? This is it. Its a violation of public trust just. It doesnt get any worse than that. Incidentally, last time I checked, priests werent running for public office. We are not talking about religion here. This involves politics. There is a difference.

    How some can make excuses for or attempt to diminish the gravity of the missteps taken by the clowns in their party is always entertaining to me. Its always," Yeah, but the republicans are worse." Absolutely laughable nonsense.

    The hypocrisies of the demoncratic party are EVERY BIT as repugnant as those evident within the republican party. We can go back for years on instances in history where this is the case.

    Grotesque? Take a GOOD LOOK at New Jersey. Enough said. The demoncrats play the exact same games the republicans do and to proclaim any different is pure naivete. Im sorry. I dont care how you try to justify or defend their failings as "lesser evils", which is utterly ridiculous by the way. Corruption is corruption. Plain and simple.

    Its interesting how often some jump to point out the failings of the right yet are so obviously offended when the same faults are found within their own party. That fits perfectly with the definition of the term "disingenious".
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    ... Why is it a big deal....because it is illegal. Let alone all the potential laws that had to be potentially broken in order to engage in his private entertainment. All of this as the chief law enforcement officer in his state!

    First of all the transfer of money was not declared, which since it is just under $5,000 (the normal going rate for the girl he was with) he must have had a coupon or something because that is the breaking point felonies. But when repeated or shown to be under $5000 with the purpose of evading the $5000 declaring, it is again illegal....due to classified as money laundering.

    It is a federal offense to transfer funds across state lines that will knowingly go to support an illegal organization.

    It was being reported yesterday that today they were going to show that this has been a repeated offense going back 6 years.....during the same time he was investigating and/or putting people in jail for the exact same offenses.

    The other serious questions that needs to be answered is....did he use public funds support this potential habit? Did he claim business travel expenses for the ultimate purpose of his entertainment? Did he use public salary employees for security during this time? All of these questions are either being currently investigated or have answers to that have not been released yet.

    So the answer again to your question, that does not seem to bother you at all, is that as Governor, the head law enforcement officer, he apparently broke several local and federal laws, potentially repeated offenses going back a span of six years.


    Very nice spin!! Ignore the multitude of illegal acts committed. Deny liability of any illegal acts by claiming a witch hunt on morality, regardless if the offense were actually, maybe....against the law?

    Do you have to ask why is this a big deal because he is Dem? I have little doubt that if it was a Rep, you would be all over it as a classic show of hypocrisy.

    But if you want to go down the hypocrisy road, this not the example to build your case on. This very act he was caught doing while being in public office, is the very example of what he campaigned against. It is the very platform that his Governorship sits on.

    Can you honestly say that if he was a Republican, that you would be giving him the exact same free pass you are giving him right now?????

    But with that aside, as that is not the issue with me at all. It was an illegal act. I don't care if he was Rep, Dem, or Green.....if guilty he needs to be held accountable. Period. Party affiliation has NOTHING to do with it.

    Again....maybe because the crimes are illegal??
    I've only a moment, but let me attempt to summarize your view:

    What he did was bad because it was illegal.

    Not that it was bad that it was illegal.

    I'm interpreting here, but it seems you are not arguing that consensual sexual acts between adults should be criminalized, right ???
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/12/2008 at 03:34 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #33  
    You asked why everyone was so upset about this. I answered because he broke the law. I did not even address the morality of the actual act...you keep on bringing that up and trying to make that an argument in this specific case....but more importantly even if you take the actual sexual act out of the picture all together, he broke several federal laws to meet his scheduled appointment (which remember we are currently ignoring all together). Here is a summary I heard on CNN this morning about the criminal charges that he could face....excluding the Man Act with any prostitution charges that are usually not even charges against Johns. These including:

    • Wire Fraud -- Wiring money to a criminal organization -- up to 5 years imprisonment.
    • Mail Fraud -- Mailing money to a criminal organization-- up to 5 years imprisonment.
    • Money Laundering -- Disguising money that he knows is enriching a criminal organization -- up to 5 years imprisonment.
    • Racketeer Influence Corrupt Organization Act -- Basically helping to make wealthy a criminal enterprise -- up to 20 years imprisonment.

    Just curious, how do these crimes fall into your unjustified criminal morality argument?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/12/2008 at 02:51 PM.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings;1420262...Even more of an interesting methodology for thinking (provided I read correctly). Your willingness to see his punishment come to fruition isn’t based on any moral clarity of the action itself; rather, on the notion he held others to a standard for which he came up short.[/COLOR
    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    I make no apology for wanting private consensual behavior to not be criminalized.

    As offensive as I find much of Christian belief and worship -- as disturbing as I find a WWF bout, I am uninterested in jailing those who enjoy those "activities".

    As far as the "morality" of his cheating on his wife ??? -- had he had an affair with his secretary there would be far more damage to his marriage but no criminal sanction.

    Hyprocrisy is a crime for me -- and a serious one.

    And I wish all discovered to be liars and hyporcrites to come down from their pulpits, admit that they are sinners -- and plead for tolerance in and for others.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I make no apology for wanting private consensual behavior to not be criminalized.
    None needed. I'd be happy to see cheating on one's wife while simultaneously diverting family funds for the act an offense only in divorce court versus say, a criminal offense between a person and their government.

    Hyprocrisy is a crime for me -- and a serious one.
    You've got a crossed wire here.

    In one breath you are upset over "consensual sex" being a criminal offense, yet at the same time hypocrisy is an acceptable one?

    All you've done is replace criminalizing the moral impropriety that you don't like, with one you do like.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

    Verizon Treo650 W/Custom ROM
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Hyprocrisy among those with whom I disagree politically is a crime for me -- and a serious one.
    FYP.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    FYP.

    "Hyprocrisy among those with whom I disagree politically is a crime for me -- and a serious one."
    indeed.

    I have no real quibble with your paraphrase -- its easier to be judgemental with those I oppose -- and kinder with those I like.

    I wear my flaws like the medals on my uniform -- proudly (even though I awarded them myself) ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    indeed.

    I have no real quibble with your paraphrase -- its easier to be judgemental with those I oppose -- and kinder with those I like.

    I wear my flaws like the medals on my uniform -- proudly (even though I awarded them myself) ...
    Ironic, isn't it?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #39  
    Just more casualties of another irrational war against our own nature . Most of us suffer through our cultural hoops and are laid to rest with our fannies well covered . What's Ironic is our ability to fan a fire that eventually will burn ourselves .
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by byronchurch View Post
    What's Ironic is our ability to fan a fire that eventually will burn ourselves .
    Sort of my point, isn't it?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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