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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would a Hillary supporter vote for McCain over Hillary?
    Because they are "bitter".
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would a Hillary supporter vote for McCain over Hillary?
    I think he meant if obama wins, then hillary supporters will vote for mccain.

    In other words, as the person above me said, hillary supporters will be bitter. lol

    Good one, moderateinny....
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  3. #163  
    But that would prove Obama was right! Hillary supporters apparently suck at teh logics.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    But that would prove Obama was right! Hillary supporters apparently suck at the logics.
    Taken in the proper context, Obama was absolutely right - there are certainly more than a sliver of American's that vote based on a candidates positions on guns, god, and gays. He may not have said it very well, but I understood exactly what he meant and so did Hillary. It wasn't elitistism - it was the truth and only those that vote based on guns, god, and gays would be offended by his statements. Too bad for them.

    You know, the guy isn't perfect, but of the three remaining candidates I find his honesty to be refreshing. It may be politically naive to be so candid, but I for one welcome it.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Taken in the proper context, Obama was absolutely right - there are certainly more than a sliver of American's that vote based on a candidates positions on guns, god, and gays.
    I don't think that was all he meant, though. I think he was trying to speak to the larger issue of being taken in by 'The System'.
    He may not have said it very well, but I understood exactly what he meant and so did Hillary.
    Sure she did, because it was a dig at The Democratic Establishment too, which definitely includes her and Bill.
    It wasn't elitistism - it was the truth and only those that vote based on guns, god, and gays would be offended by his statements. Too bad for them.
    I think that most right-wingers who vote those issues aren't going to be offended by his statements.
    You know, the guy isn't perfect, but of the three remaining candidates I find his honesty to be refreshing. It may be politically naive to be so candid, but I for one welcome it.
    I suppose I'm so politically naive that I don't consider there to be only three remaining candidates.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #166  
    Well, I think he was actually suggesting a) people are bitter over their economic problems, and b) this bitterness causes people to "cling" to the issues of religion and guns. If I were one of these people, I wouldn't be offended; I'd just feel that he doesn't really respect my values.

    And according to Rasmussen, Obama's unfavorable rating has gone from 45% to 50% in the last several days.
    http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...ial_candidates
  7.    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why would a Hillary supporter vote for McCain over Hillary?
    maybe because they think after 8 years of an unqualified ***** making a mess of things, that Obama might not yet be qualified for the world's most important job.

    That he's more like Dukakis in his cultural orientation.

    That he doesn't reasonate for them as Obama reasonates for all of you.

    There's this difficult to resist reflex amongst humans -- one I'm fortunate to not share with your kind -- to demonize those who disagree with whom you all support, who dare criticize your champion.

    This nomination contest is just an easy preliminary bout. If your guy can absorb and take the hits and recover from his mistakes during this stage, maybe he can learn enough to have a chance against McCain.

    So far though, he's not been tested with much rigor.

    Hillary and the media especially, have been pulling their punches. Any time she's landed even a glancing hit to his face his supporters growl about low blows.

    I wish all of you would recognize (as few humans do) that the Presidency is not about choosing a "personality". Its not about comfort, congeniality, bowling skill, or beer swigging.

    Its about policies, actions, nominations, wars -- things that effect real lives, and that have real and catastrophic consequences.

    Sadly elections in the US are almost never won based on policy or consequences.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/15/2008 at 02:32 PM.
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  8.    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ...Me -- as I've said before -- I'd vote for a dog -- a flee infested, mange infected, rabid yellow dog -- with bad breath -- before I'd vote for McCain...
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll ditto that with the above (Hillary)substitution.
    Those who pretend that they want the war to end, that they want to reverse the planetary destruction that junior has supported, that they want to help homeowners being foreclosed onto the street and not just Bear Stearns, Enron, and the oil companies --

    and yet say they'll support McCain over Hillary -- are either dishonest with themselves, or fools.

    But maybe I’m too harsh, maybe they want to “punish” the democratic party, maybe they want to “teach” the DLC a lesson.

    The same lesson they were teaching when they voted for Nadir over Gore...
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  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Those who pretend that they want the war to end, that they want to reverse the planetary destruction that junior has supported, that they want to help homeowners being foreclosed onto the street and not just Bear Stearns, Enron, and the oil companies --

    and yet say they'll support McCain over Hillary -- are either dishonest with themselves, or fools.

    But maybe I’m too harsh, maybe they want to “punish” the democratic party, maybe they want to “teach” the DLC a lesson.

    The same lesson they were teaching when they voted for Nadir over Gore...
    Oh, I won't vote for McCain. Don't worry. I'll be voting for Obama.

  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post

    And according to Rasmussen, Obama's unfavorable rating has gone from 45% to 50% in the last several days.
    http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...ial_candidates
    http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...ial_candidates

    In the same range since last year...
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  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Well, I think he was actually suggesting a) people are bitter over their economic problems, and b) this bitterness causes people to "cling" to the issues of religion and guns. If I were one of these people, I wouldn't be offended; I'd just feel that he doesn't really respect my values.

    And according to Rasmussen, Obama's unfavorable rating has gone from 45% to 50% in the last several days.
    http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...ial_candidates
    Dunno. I still think he meant that people take solice in things that bring them comfort in trying times and that there are politicians who exploit that for political gain. So to me those poeple should be less offended by Obama's comments and wake up and be more offended by those that use them and their "values" for political gain. Particularily those that repeatedly demonstrate that they only say they hold similar values, yet, live their lives in a way completely contrary to those values.
  12. #172  
    As a person who has voted based on one of those issues, obama was talking about me... lol

    Truth is guns, abortion, and religion are big deals in American politics. Fact is they are "safe" topics when speaking about politics... I mean, how many people know how mccain voted on nafta or various gun bills. What is mccains record? What is hills record?

    But I've found out this year that many people simply don't follow politics. They read the news and know that obama said something and now he is an "elitist." They don't know the "meat and potatoes" of what was said. Not like they don't care, but they simply don't have time, from what I see. Both parents work, scrambling with kids, working late, working two jobs, or working and going to school, or taking care of elderly parents, etc... people are busy. No excuse, but it is what it is.

    In addition:

    People don't know where their candidate stand on the issues.

    But they can tell you (and what they want to talk about) is how terrible another candidate is or how another party will destroy America... or the recent nonsense in the news about a candidate (they don't support). They know nothing about their candidate but can spread all the gossip and lies about another candidate all day long. If they made educated comments about another candidate it would be ok. Unfortunately, they come off ignorant and they make me sick.

    Moving on:

    People like me can look past the gun debate, if you don't make it such a big issue like stating Bill Clinton did not go far enough (Thanks for saying that, obama).

    What else do people like me have to look forward to? Let me see.... universal health care? I have health care already (although, I am interested in reading more details about his plan than what is on the site). Getting out of iraq? No one is proposing 100% withdrawal. Save us from middle eastern oil? Right.

    Kill taxes for corporations? Corporations will pass any tax liabilities directly to the consumers. lol... I run a business, I know... every time taxes or post office fees go up, the amount my customers pay go up. I don't "eat" those costs. Education plan seems ok... Bush had a good plan as well, but it was not funded. Paygo seems ok... we need to get our spending under control... but education and health care will cost... not counting that our wars in iraq and Afghanistan won't end overnight. Not to mention this (maybe?) recession.

    I could go on... but you get the picture... things are complicated and this "change" will not come easy.
    Last edited by theog; 04/15/2008 at 12:07 AM.
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  13.    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh, I won't vote for McCain. Don't worry. I'll be voting for Obama.

    you may well be right.

    Last week I said that she'd likely withdraw after Pa. That her margin of victory over Obama there would be significantly less than ten percent. That he had a better than 90 % chance of being the Democratic Party nominee.

    Obama had been inexorably moving up on her in the polls. He has been outspending her by (depending on the source) as much as 5 to 1 on commercials etc.

    But his bitter San Fran chit chat has now halted that momentum, and probably reversed it.

    I now think she could well win by more than 10%. Should that happen, its very unlikely she'll withdraw.

    Indiana which is next, is economically, demographically, and culturally very similar to where she's done well previously.

    Are her attacks on his comments over done?? Is she over playing things??

    Perhaps.

    Desperate to wrench out a strong win with only a week to go, she is no doubt worried that the media will forget this story if she doesn't stoke it.

    But unfortunately, the more she talks about it the more it begins to diminish her. I'm sure she understands this, but running out of money and time, Hillary feels that she has no other option if she is to prevail.

    Obama has been been damaged far more than anyone here is willing to acknowlege. Its the kind of damage that is both deeper and longer lasting than it now seems.

    I think his chances of being the nominee are now 65-70%. Chances of defeating McCain: maybe 50%

    Wednesday's debate will be crucial -- it will possibly offer him a chance to repair at least some of that damage.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/17/2008 at 10:08 AM.
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  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Taken in the proper context, Obama was absolutely right - there are certainly more than a sliver of American's that vote based on a candidates positions on guns, god, and gays. He may not have said it very well, but I understood exactly what he meant and so did Hillary. It wasn't elitistism - it was the truth and only those that vote based on guns, god, and gays would be offended by his statements. Too bad for them.

    You know, the guy isn't perfect, but of the three remaining candidates I find his honesty to be refreshing. It may be politically naive to be so candid, but I for one welcome it.
    This post is delicious on so many levels. Things would be so much easier if those pesky rednecks didn't have the right to vote...

    This is the best Dem primary ever. Hillary is toast and every day reveals Obama as the media created creature he is. This primary is so bitter and divisive that long time donks will just stay home on election day. Obama will be the Dem nominee and finish worse than McGovern. His loss will have down ticket impact. The angry geezer will breeze to victory...

    And then he'll screw me as he has for the past eight years. Not saying I won't vote for him, because the alternatives are so much worse.
  15.    #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever View Post
    This post is delicious on so many levels. Things would be so much easier if those pesky rednecks didn't have the right to vote...

    This is the best Dem primary ever. Hillary is toast and every day reveals Obama as the media created creature he is. This primary is so bitter and divisive that long time donks will just stay home on election day. Obama will be the Dem nominee and finish worse than McGovern. His loss will have down ticket impact. The angry geezer will breeze to victory...

    And then he'll screw me as he has for the past eight years. Not saying I won't vote for him, because the alternatives are so much worse.
    (hi 1911sforever -- how are the interns ??)

    if nothing else 1911sforever, your post illustrates what had always been delusional: that Obama would do as well in the red states as he'd done in the Democratic primaries, in those states.

    (Unless its only democrats who vote -- or if the election is by caucus)
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  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh, I won't vote for McCain. Don't worry. I'll be voting for Obama.

    What you do if it came down to McCain and Hillary in November?
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    if nothing else 1911sforever, your post illustrates what had always been delusional: that Obama would do as well in the red states as he'd done in the Democratic primaries, in those states.

    (Unless its only democrats who vote -- or if the election is by caucus)
    Barye, I agree...but with both candidates in the same scenario. I have seen polls from CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, etc...showing what would happen today if the election was held between McCain vs Hillary and then what would happen if it was McCain vs Obama. They are all over the place. But one thing can be pulled from all of this...the Dems are going to have a tuff fight come November no matter who it is.

    I do not give credit to McCain for this, but I think all credit is due to the how the Dem party is eating each other alive....and the main course and desert hasn't even been served yet. No matter what there is going to be there will be a disenfranchised population from within the Dem party. How they react I think will be the single biggest deciding factor in November's ultimate outcome. Three things will happen with this disgruntled Dem demographic, IMHO:

    1) They will not vote because their candidate is not on the ticket. McCain wins.
    2) They will vote for the opponent (McCain) to show their dissatisfaction. McCain wins.
    3) They ignore all the salt poured on the inter-party wounds and vote party lines no matter who the candidate will be. H or O will win.
    4) There will be enough of a combination between options 2 & 3 that McCain will win.
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    the Dems are going to have a tuff fight come November no matter who it is.
    This just in....

    Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 2008 Election Early

    http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...dentally_leaks


    I do not give credit to McCain for this, but I think all credit is due to the how the Dem party is eating each other alive....and the main course and desert hasn't even been served yet. No matter what there is going to be there will be a disenfranchised population from within the Dem party. How they react I think will be the single biggest deciding factor in November's ultimate outcome. Three things will happen with this disgruntled Dem demographic, IMHO:

    1) They will not vote because their candidate is not on the ticket. McCain wins.
    2) They will vote for the opponent (McCain) to show their dissatisfaction. McCain wins.
    3) They ignore all the salt poured on the inter-party wounds and vote party lines no matter who the candidate will be. H or O will win.
    4) There will be enough of a combination between options 2 & 3 that McCain will win.
    Are you talking true Dems or the undecided vote? I can't see a true Dem skipping sides to vote for McCain.

    I'm still thinking hill is out before or in June... that gives plenty of time for obama to strengthen the party... and I'd hope that hill and bill will support obama and rally behind him... you know, stay true to her word that she would do that.

    Although, I think it is difficult to stand behind someone that you honestly don't believe they can be president (although, I can't remember if she said exactly that, but some attributed those remarks to her). Bill has had some disparaging remarks against obama as well... be interesting to see him go out in full force to support obama.

    Either way I'm thinking obama will give mccain a run for his money... I can't wait... should be fun to see what plan obama comes up with.... I'm not sure any republican is very happy with their choice for president.
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  19.    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Barye, I agree...but with both candidates in the same scenario. I have seen polls from CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, etc...showing what would happen today if the election was held between McCain vs Hillary and then what would happen if it was McCain vs Obama. They are all over the place. But one thing can be pulled from all of this...the Dems are going to have a tuff fight come November no matter who it is.

    ...
    I must Hobbes, quoth my favorite primate -- from posts he made before the NH primary:

    1/6/08

    "...I remain convinced that Obama would be an exceptionally vulnerable candidate in November. I fear he would be more like how Kerry and Edwards were in 2004: trying so hard to seem nice, that they never replied to the crap aimed at them..."


    1/8/08

    "...It will be a very tight tough election. Obama barely wins, if at all. He'll have an inspiring first 6 months 12 months, then probably another failed Fordish presidency..."




    You are right Hobbes -- the dems are in for a tough fight come November.

    And were this any other year, after any other Presidency, they would probably lose with Obama. Or even Hillary.

    But thanks to junior, they are not going to be running in any ordinary year -- they are not going to be following after any ordinary administration.

    They will have the unfortunate "benefit" of running to follow what has been the worst, most incompetent, least truthful, most destructive administration in american history.

    An administration that manipulated itself into the Presidency, that left the nation asleep to terrorists, that lied the nation into an entirely avoidable war, that fiddled as global warming accelerated, and that has lead the nation into the worse economic state since the Great Depression.

    Ultimately it will be the economy, the housing crisis and junior's recession that will make even bitter blue collar middle americans pull the lever for Obama or Hillary. At least enough of them to defeat McCain. (I'm now presuming that Bloomberg isn't running).
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  20.    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    This just in....

    Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 2008 Election Early

    http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...dentally_leaks




    Are you talking true Dems or the undecided vote? I can't see a true Dem skipping sides to vote for McCain.

    I'm still thinking hill is out before or in June... that gives plenty of time for obama to strengthen the party... and I'd hope that hill and bill will support obama and rally behind him... you know, stay true to her word that she would do that.

    Although, I think it is difficult to stand behind someone that you honestly don't believe they can be president (although, I can't remember if she said exactly that, but some attributed those remarks to her). Bill has had some disparaging remarks against obama as well... be interesting to see him go out in full force to support obama...
    Should Obama be the nominee -- (as he probably will be) both Bill and Hillary will campaign hard and enthusiastically on his behalf.

    Bill will make Obama seem able to turn water into wine, be able to feed the multitudes with 7 loaves of bread, of being able to walk on water...
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/15/2008 at 03:50 PM.
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