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  1.    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Regarding the story from the deputy sheriff retold by her numerous times, I've seen the footage of the sheriff telling it to her, and he looks so stilted I think they gave him the story to tell her so she could repeat it.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    unless there is ANY evidence to support that belief, this is just an opinion based on your preconceived feelings of hostility for her.

    For the record, the Associated Press has investigated this story, and they've verified that Hillary was speaking the truth as it was told to her -- and that the facts of the story are essentially true.

    Not that anyone in the media (or even in this forum) will make much of the fact that they were both unfair to Hillary, and wrong.


    Clinton's Tale
    April 8, 2008 AP

    ... recent accounts of the episode have omitted key details that suggest there was more truth in the essence of Clinton's tale than her critics, and even her presidential campaign, have acknowledged.

    Since early March, the New York senator has often told campaign audiences a heartbreaking story of a young Ohio woman who began having problems with her pregnancy. She said the woman was twice turned away by a local hospital because she had no health insurance and could not pay a $100 minimum charge.

    Clinton, who advocates health coverage for all Americans, put it this way in Terre Haute, Ind., on March 20:

    "I'll tell you a quick story that I heard in Ohio when I was campaigning there," she said. "A deputy sheriff told me about a young woman who worked at the pizza parlor there and she worked for minimum wage, she didn't have any insurance. She got pregnant, went to the hospital — and I don't blame the hospital. The hospital said, 'We can't take any more charity care. You have to give us $100 before we can examine you.' She didn't have $100. Went back another time, they told her the same thing."

    Sen. Clinton said the woman returned a third time "in an ambulance. And they worked hard to stabilize her, and she lost her baby. Then they airlifted her to Columbus to the medical center, and for 15 days they tried to save her life, and she died."

    ...Clinton said she heard the story from Meigs County Deputy Sheriff Bryan Holman during a visit to Pomeroy, before the March 4 Ohio primary.

    In a March 26 phone interview with The Associated Press, Holman said he had told Clinton the story in essentially the same way she was retelling it in her speeches. He said he knew the Bachtel story only second hand, and lacked several details.

    ...at an earlier time, Casto said, Bachtel lacked health insurance and ran up unpaid bills when treated at a clinic near her home in Middleport. When she returned for treatment when pregnant, the clinic demanded $100 per visit to help retire the outstanding debt, Casto said. Because Bachtel could not afford the fees and found it difficult to travel, her aunt said, she postponed receiving treatment.

    ...In some cases, Blevins said, Holzer clinics place "credit restrictions" on patients believed to be able but unwilling to pay their bills. That would not apply to patients needing immediate or emergency care, he said.

    Clinton erred in telling audiences that the Ohio woman lacked insurance when seeking help for her troubled pregnancy. But according to Casto's account, Bachtel's medical tragedy began with circumstances very close to the essence of Clinton's now-abandoned account: the lack of insurance created a $100 barrier to needed medical attention close to home.
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    For the record, the Associated Press has investigated this story, and they've verified that Hillary was speaking the truth as it was told to her -- and that the facts of the story are essentially true.

    Not that anyone in the media (or even in this forum) will make much of the fact that they were both unfair to Hillary, and wrong.


    Clinton's Tale
    April 8, 2008 AP

    ... recent accounts of the episode have omitted key details that suggest there was more truth in the essence of Clinton's tale than her critics, and even her presidential campaign, have acknowledged.

    Since early March, the New York senator has often told campaign audiences a heartbreaking story of a young Ohio woman who began having problems with her pregnancy. She said the woman was twice turned away by a local hospital because she had no health insurance and could not pay a $100 minimum charge.

    Clinton, who advocates health coverage for all Americans, put it this way in Terre Haute, Ind., on March 20:

    "I'll tell you a quick story that I heard in Ohio when I was campaigning there," she said. "A deputy sheriff told me about a young woman who worked at the pizza parlor there and she worked for minimum wage, she didn't have any insurance. She got pregnant, went to the hospital — and I don't blame the hospital. The hospital said, 'We can't take any more charity care. You have to give us $100 before we can examine you.' She didn't have $100. Went back another time, they told her the same thing."

    Sen. Clinton said the woman returned a third time "in an ambulance. And they worked hard to stabilize her, and she lost her baby. Then they airlifted her to Columbus to the medical center, and for 15 days they tried to save her life, and she died."

    ...Clinton said she heard the story from Meigs County Deputy Sheriff Bryan Holman during a visit to Pomeroy, before the March 4 Ohio primary.

    In a March 26 phone interview with The Associated Press, Holman said he had told Clinton the story in essentially the same way she was retelling it in her speeches. He said he knew the Bachtel story only second hand, and lacked several details.

    ...at an earlier time, Casto said, Bachtel lacked health insurance and ran up unpaid bills when treated at a clinic near her home in Middleport. When she returned for treatment when pregnant, the clinic demanded $100 per visit to help retire the outstanding debt, Casto said. Because Bachtel could not afford the fees and found it difficult to travel, her aunt said, she postponed receiving treatment.

    ...In some cases, Blevins said, Holzer clinics place "credit restrictions" on patients believed to be able but unwilling to pay their bills. That would not apply to patients needing immediate or emergency care, he said.

    Clinton erred in telling audiences that the Ohio woman lacked insurance when seeking help for her troubled pregnancy. But according to Casto's account, Bachtel's medical tragedy began with circumstances very close to the essence of Clinton's now-abandoned account: the lack of insurance created a $100 barrier to needed medical attention close to home.
    I guess you kinda conveniently missed my point. It is my contention that the story originates within the Billary camp and by having it "told to her" by someone else, she could repeat the fiction with the qualifier "this story as told to me".
  3.    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I guess you kinda conveniently missed my point. It is my contention that the story originates within the Billary camp and by having it "told to her" by someone else, she could repeat the fiction with the qualifier "this story as told to me".
    I understood your point -- your point is documented as wrong.

    Defamitorily wrong.

    The AP investigated. They showed that the essence of the story to be true -- and to have originated from that Deputy Sherriff.

    A Deputy Sherriff who confirms that what Hillary spoke about is the story he had told her.

    (I'm curious why you have'nt responded to my "under rock" diatribe.)
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  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The AP investigated. They showed that the essence of the story to be true -- and to have originated from that Deputy Sherriff.
    Read better. Who told it to him?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5.    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Read better. Who told it to him?

    "...In a March 26 phone interview with The Associated Press, Holman said he had told Clinton the story in essentially the same way she was retelling it in her speeches. He said he knew the Bachtel story only second hand, and lacked several details..."


    am I to understand that you and da Thomas are presuming that the Deputy Sheriff was told this story originally by Hillary's campaign ?????

    Where does this conjecture originate ???? What basis do any of you have to make these defamitory allegations ???


    The:

    "I hate Hillary -- Hillary is evil -- therefore anything that comes out of her pie hole is contrived or a lie..."


    theory doesn't work for me.

    For some reason this logic is insufficient to persuade me of your "truth". (perhaps naive BARYE's standards are too high...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Alright -- a semi-serious answer to the question you’ve basically asked me twice.

    You wanna know what BARYE cares about -- why he supports Hillary ??

    You -- like some others he knows on the left -- want to know why BARYE seems to “get” the history, seems to “get” the conditions that have brought things to where they are, seems to understand the “best” destination -- yet argues “cynically” on behalf of candidates like Bill and Hillary ??

    What I care most about (at least hypothetically) are ordinary folks.

    Ordinary guys who go off to fight and be maimed in the chickenhawk's wars -- guys that come home to no jobs and their homes foreclosed upon.

    Workers in New Orleans who go jobless because a GOP connected contractor got junior to issue a union waver so that they could import illegals to work for half the wages that locals would have expected.

    I care about actual practical solutions that can deliver real improvement to americans today -- not perfect solutions that might come to pass in 300 years.

    One of my closest friends worked tirelessly against Hillary care in the early 90's.

    It practically ended our relationship.

    Though I too wanted a single payer Canadian style system -- I understood the practicalities of incrementally achieving what you can as you can. Of building constituencies. Of developing grass roots support. Of being mature and adult enough to be aware of and learn from history. To not reach too far and grab nothing.

    To think of the real people who are affected by and the victims of policy that is just a philosophical parlor game to activists.

    BARYE would have supported Humphrey, Muskie, Carter, Dukakis (painfully, even Dukakis), et al. All the mainstream democratic Presidential candidates of the last 70 years would have had me as a supporter.

    I would've supported them because they were better than the repug alternatives, and because each of them at the time seemed like the strongest most likely to succeed candidate.

    I expect you supported Brown over Clinton. I NEVER did.

    You probably supported Teddy over Carter (in ‘79). I didn’t.

    You probably supported Bradley over Gore -- and then Nadir over Gore. I always supported Gore. Enthusiastically.

    The moment I read the letter Clinton wrote to his draft board about Viet Nam, Bill had me.

    Hillary had me when I learned of her protests against Viet Nam, and her and Bill’s work on behalf McGovern in ‘72 (who I volunteered for too after Muskie cried himself out of that race.)

    I HATE perfectionism in politics.

    I loathe those like Nadir who postulate “perfect” solutions.

    FUK them !!! The arrogance of ivory tower liberals like him make me wretch.

    NEVER has he apologized or expressed regret for these last 7 horrible years.

    Where has been the wholesale expression of contrition on the left for opposing Gore, for supporting Nadir ???

    Thomas -- perhaps this is not what you were looking for -- but this is what’s under BARYE’s rock...
    To put it briefly but distincly, I support the DNC NOT the DLC.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    "...In a March 26 phone interview with The Associated Press, Holman said he had told Clinton the story in essentially the same way she was retelling it in her speeches. He said he knew the Bachtel story only second hand, and lacked several details..."


    am I to understand that you and da Thomas are presuming that the Deputy Sheriff was told this story originally by Hillary's campaign ?????
    I think that this is close enough WRT daThomas, however, I didn't say anything like that. I don't know nor do I care to presume where he heard it. The fact that it is second hand (at best) to him is enough to reinforce my original assessment.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8.    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I think that this is close enough WRT daThomas, however, I didn't say anything like that. I don't know nor do I care to presume where he heard it. The fact that it is second hand (at best) to him is enough to reinforce my original assessment.

    first I don't know what is meant by: "WRT"

    (Except for "BTW" and "WTF", almost every other shortcut is nonsensical to me.)

    Second, I don't know what it is you're defending.

    daThomas made an allegation that her campaign was the source for the story -- that her campaign either made it up entirely, or that after the Deputy Sheriff self identified himself as her source, that they were the puppeteers behind him.

    Maybe its just me, but if I had been shown a similar sequence of simple undisputed facts that entirely controvert my completely unsupported allegations, I'd feel honour bound to apologize and retract them.

    But thats just me...
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/09/2008 at 08:57 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #129  
    Re WRT, JFGI
  10.    #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Re WRT, JFGI
    I can't use the google -- I'm still awaiting their oft delayed native Corsican language version -- its the only language I can really read or understand...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    first I don't know what is meant by: "WRT"

    (Except for "BTW" and "WTF", almost every other shortcut is nonsensical to me.)
    With Regards To
    Second, I don't know what it is you're defending.
    You're the one doing the defending here actually. I am saying that a politician told, at best, a third hand account of a story (which the teller even admits not having all the facts) on the campaign trail to drum up fear and emotion in order to boost their chances of getting nominated/elected. I'm also saying that I put such stories in the same category as urban legends.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12.    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    With Regards To

    You're the one doing the defending here actually. I am saying that a politician told, at best, a third hand account of a story (which the teller even admits not having all the facts) on the campaign trail to drum up fear and emotion in order to boost their chances of getting nominated/elected. I'm also saying that I put such stories in the same category as urban legends.
    cool --

    FWIW I JFGI !!

    When a politicians wants to talk about some issue in way that connects something hypethical to that issue's real effects -- they are always going to want repeat a real story that illustrates and makes empathizable, that problem.

    politicians can't always know everything about what they hear or read.

    All we can legitimately expect is that they not fabricate or artificially distort -- and that they report what they are told honestly and sincerely.

    That was what she did.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    When a politicians wants to talk about some issue in way that connects something hypethical to that issue's real effects -- they are always going to want repeat a real story that illustrates and makes empathizable, that problem.
    I can understand their wanting that. However, I cannot excuse their just repeating every story they hear as though it _were_ fact. When a politician does that often enough, the press will deservedly out them sooner or later.
    politicians can't always know everything about what they hear or read.
    Which is why they should have someone on staff doing some basic fact checking before they start fear-mongering. Should we not expect that from people who think themselves worthy to lead us?
    All we can legitimately expect is that they not fabricate or artificially distort -- and that they report what they are told honestly and sincerely.
    I call shenanigans. We can quite legitimately expect them to check the basic facts of any story before shilling it out on the campaign trail. We can also quite legitimately expect the press to call them out on it when it becomes clear that they're dealing in truthiness instead of truth.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    cool --

    FWIW I JFGI !!

    When a politicians wants to talk about some issue in way that connects something hypethical to that issue's real effects -- they are always going to want repeat a real story that illustrates and makes empathizable, that problem.

    politicians can't always know everything about what they hear or read.

    All we can legitimately expect is that they not fabricate or artificially distort -- and that they report what they are told honestly and sincerely.

    That was what she did.
    So securing the facts before sharing a 3 hand story to illustrate a point important to a candidate isn't important? Each candidate does have a team that are responsible for fact checks. They need to use them.

    So if we take your argument at face value then if McCain shared a story to illustrate how we are all in immediate danger of a bomb in any given super market from terrorists cells here in the US to prove the point that the War on Terror is real and can be waged in our own neighborhoods.....but that this story was told to him by a person who admits he did not really have anything to do with the original intel or possible situations as it was at best 2 hand information and that he did not have all the facts.......then you would be fine with it because he shared it the same way that the 2nd hand fact challenged account was told to him?

    For me, that is not a positive trait in a person who is up to be the commander and chief in one of the most powerful nations in the world.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/10/2008 at 04:05 PM.
  15. #135  
    ^ Ding, ding, ding!! We have a winnah!
  16.    #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    So securing the facts before sharing a 3 hand story to illustrate a point important to a candidate isn't important? ...
    everyone is free to reinterpret this event as they please.

    What's clear to me is that this event reveals much much more about the media (and folks here in the forum), than about Hillary.

    Though she truthfully retold an anecdote that served as a metaphor for the all too real crisis we have in health care -- an anecodote that was true -- the press (and contributors here) first misrepresented her statements, and then when they were revealed to be unfairly defaming her, they respun the story as indicating her being somehow unqualified to be President.

    Hillary's haters are determined that no matter which way her roullette wheel spins, she loses ...

    how do you counteract such mindlessness ???
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/11/2008 at 08:15 AM.
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  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    What's clear to me is that this event reveals much much more about the media (and folks here in the forum), than about Hillary.
    If you're including yourself in that 'folks', I could agree.
    Though she truthfully retold an anecdote that served as a metaphor for the all too real crisis we have in health care -- an anecodote that was true --
    Speaking of spin...
    the press (and contributors here) first misrepresented her statements, and then when they were revealed to be unfairly defaming her, they respun the story as indicating her being somehow unqualified to be President.
    One has to admit that her story-telling at this point is bound to do her more harm than good. Of course, I can understand your penchant for buying into her story telling given your schtick here.
    Hillary's haters are determined that no matter which way her roullette wheel spins, she loses ...
    I don't hate Hillary any more than I hate Bush. I'm tired of both their families being in office.
    how do you counteract such mindlessness ???
    Apparently by pretending to be a Napoleonic monkey.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    What's clear to me is that this event reveals much much more about the media (and folks here in the forum), than about Hillary.

    Though she truthfully retold an anecdote that served as a metaphor for the all too real crisis we have in health care -- an anecdote that was true -- the press (and contributors here) first misrepresented her statements, and then when they were revealed to be unfairly defaming her, they respun the story as indicating her being somehow unqualified to be President.

    Hillary's haters are determined that no matter which way her roullette wheel spins, she loses
    To the best of my knowledge she was sharing a story to illustrate her movement for socialized health care. She did say someone told her this story...but after 5 weeks of sharing it on the stump, she never had anyone even call the hospital in question to question the validity of the situation or the truthfulness of the facts she was saying.

    She never said this is a parable or a metaphor....she said it was a real event that she heard 2nd hand. There is a HUGE difference.


    Ohio Hospital Contests a Story Clinton Tells

    Over the last five weeks, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has featured in her campaign stump speeches the story of a health care horror: an uninsured pregnant woman who lost her baby and died herself after being denied care by an Ohio hospital because she could not come up with a $100 fee.

    The woman, Trina Bachtel, did die last August, two weeks after her baby boy was stillborn at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens, Ohio. But hospital administrators said Friday that Ms. Bachtel was under the care of an obstetrics practice affiliated with the hospital, that she was never refused treatment and that she was, in fact, insured.


    --------------------

    Linda M. Weiss, a spokeswoman for the not-for-profit hospital, said the Clinton campaign had never contacted the hospital to check the accuracy of the story, which Mrs. Clinton had first heard from a Meigs County, Ohio, sheriff’s deputy in late February.......He never mentioned the name of the hospital that supposedly turned her away because he did not know it, he said.

    Deputy Holman knew Ms. Bachtel’s story only secondhand, having learned it from close relatives of the woman.

    ---------------------

    Mrs. Clinton does not name Ms. Bachtel or the hospital in her speeches. As she tells it, the woman was turned away twice by a local hospital when she was experiencing difficulty with her pregnancy. “The hospital said, ‘Well, you don’t have insurance.’ She said, ‘No, I don’t.’ They said, ‘Well, we can’t see you until you give $100.’ She said, ‘Where am I going to get $100?’

    “The next time she came back to the hospital, she came in an ambulance,” Mrs. Clinton continued. “She was in distress. The doctors and the nurses worked on her and couldn’t save the baby.”

    Since Ms. Bachtel’s baby died at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital, the story implicitly and inaccurately accuses that hospital of turning her away, said Ms. Weiss, the spokeswoman for O’Bleness Memorial said. Instead, the O’Bleness health care system treated her, both at the hospital and at the affiliated River Rose Obstetrics and Gynecology practice, Ms. Weiss said.

    The hospital would not provide details about the woman’s case, citing privacy concerns; she died two weeks after the stillbirth at a medical center in Columbus.

    “We reviewed the medical and patient account records of this patient,” said Mr. Castrop, the health system’s chief executive. Any implication that the system was “involved in denying care is definitely not true.”

    SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us...us&oref=slogin
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/11/2008 at 12:38 PM.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    how do you counteract such mindlessness ???
    The first step in answering your question is to identify those who are exhibiting "such mindlessness" before anyone can ask how to counteract this strange phenomenon.

    How do we do that? By applying the same standard to all candidates. If the standard of sharing 3rd hand stories without fact checking, which later proves to be inaccurate, simply to prove a point important to a plank on their party or campaign platform fits within the acceptable standard of all candidates, then those criticizing Hillary are being biased and exhibiting "mindlessness". If it only applies to Hillary but cannot accept a similar scenario I shared above with the opposing candidate, then those supporting Hillary in this are being biased and exhibiting "mindlessness".

    ......so again....before we can answer your question of HOW to counteract such mindlessness....we need to answer WHO is exhibiting the mindlessness that we need to counteract during an election campaign time.
  20.    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    ... If the standard of sharing 3rd hand stories without fact checking, which later proves to be inaccurate ...

    Hobbes, please tell that you're not still saying that the story was false, are you ????

    (your story is dated (exasperatingly) April 5th -- at least its not April 1st ...)

    As I wrote several days ago:


    For the record, the Associated Press has investigated this story, and they've verified that Hillary was speaking the truth as it was told to her -- and that the facts of the story are essentially true.

    Not that anyone in the media (or even in this forum) will make much of the fact that they were both unfair to Hillary, and wrong.


    Clinton's Tale
    April 8, 2008 AP

    ... recent accounts of the episode have omitted key details that suggest there was more truth in the essence of Clinton's tale than her critics, and even her presidential campaign, have acknowledged.

    Since early March, the New York senator has often told campaign audiences a heartbreaking story of a young Ohio woman who began having problems with her pregnancy. She said the woman was twice turned away by a local hospital because she had no health insurance and could not pay a $100 minimum charge.

    Clinton, who advocates health coverage for all Americans, put it this way in Terre Haute, Ind., on March 20:

    "I'll tell you a quick story that I heard in Ohio when I was campaigning there," she said. "A deputy sheriff told me about a young woman who worked at the pizza parlor there and she worked for minimum wage, she didn't have any insurance. She got pregnant, went to the hospital — and I don't blame the hospital. The hospital said, 'We can't take any more charity care. You have to give us $100 before we can examine you.' She didn't have $100. Went back another time, they told her the same thing."

    Sen. Clinton said the woman returned a third time "in an ambulance. And they worked hard to stabilize her, and she lost her baby. Then they airlifted her to Columbus to the medical center, and for 15 days they tried to save her life, and she died."

    ...Clinton said she heard the story from Meigs County Deputy Sheriff Bryan Holman during a visit to Pomeroy, before the March 4 Ohio primary.

    In a March 26 phone interview with The Associated Press, Holman said he had told Clinton the story in essentially the same way she was retelling it in her speeches. He said he knew the Bachtel story only second hand, and lacked several details.

    ...at an earlier time, Casto said, Bachtel lacked health insurance and ran up unpaid bills when treated at a clinic near her home in Middleport. When she returned for treatment when pregnant, the clinic demanded $100 per visit to help retire the outstanding debt, Casto said. Because Bachtel could not afford the fees and found it difficult to travel, her aunt said, she postponed receiving treatment.

    ...In some cases, Blevins said, Holzer clinics place "credit restrictions" on patients believed to be able but unwilling to pay their bills. That would not apply to patients needing immediate or emergency care, he said.

    Clinton erred in telling audiences that the Ohio woman lacked insurance when seeking help for her troubled pregnancy. But according to Casto's account, Bachtel's medical tragedy began with circumstances very close to the essence of Clinton's now-abandoned account: the lack of insurance created a $100 barrier to needed medical attention close to home.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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